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To be honest... neither plan was good. Eisenhower would have been better served to keep the plan of a broad front intact. Market Garden had to many objectives that needed to be met in order for it to happen and Patton would have easily been cut off and surrounded as he would have had wide open flanks on both sides.
Did the west underestimate the progress they made in Europe... yes. Would that have changed anything in the post-war world had they gotten deeper (remember that Stalin also stalled his troops to gain territory instead of pushing Germany (see the "Naughty Document"))... I don't see a lot of change.
He was still fighting in France at the end of August.
That's correct. Patton was denied the gas and supplies despite being at the Moselle River, the tributary of the Rhine in August 1944. (see previous post). Because he was stalled we had the Battle of the Bulge (again, see previous post) where Patton made one of the most historic military maneuvers of all time....
Enter “Old Blood and Guts,” General Patton. Employing a complex and quick-witted strategy wherein he literally wheeled his 3rd Army a sharp 90 degrees in a counterthrust movement, Patton broke through the German lines and entered Bastogne, relieving the valiant defenders and ultimately pushing the Germans east across the Rhine.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/patton-relieves-bastogne
Guess who those defenders were.... I'm waiting... Yep! the 101st Airborne. Who, of course claimed they didn't need to be rescued.
Ask the members of the 101st airborne if he was as good as he claimed.[/QUOTE]
I can't... the last one died:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41210188/ns/us_news-life/t/oldest-living-member-band-brothers-dies/
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Patton would have easily been cut off and surrounded as he would have had wide open flanks on both sides.
Pure speculation.... history says no. Didn't happen in Sicily and it didn't happen in France.
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And what else is Hogan supposed to do when the president refuses to do his job. He literally had to hide the masks and guard them so trump couldn't seize them
Ugh... actually they were test kits and there were plenty available at 30% fewer cost...
Additionally, despite the fanfare surrounding Hogan’s $9.4 million deal with LabGenomics, the test kits from Seoul were not in short supply in the United States, according to interviews with industry experts. Domestic manufacturers were producing millions of them per week when Maryland struck its overseas deal. Some firms sell the kits for 20 to 30 percent less than what Hogan paid.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...8ca8d6-8572-11ea-878a-86477a724bdb_story.html
Which is why I said to ask the 101st how good Patton was. Yeah, the 101st was surrounded... but as Dick Winters said, "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded." The Germans were already losing before Patton showed up because the weather cleared and the air supremacy of the allies was able to be brought in. The German objective was never Bastogne, it was Antwerp. The 101st stopped that from happening by halting them at Bastogne. They didn't need Patton to save them... They were already winning.
Of course, Patton, an attention hog if their ever was one... took all the glory. In that way, he is again like trump.
Except, they aren't available when the government keeps confiscating them from the states at 100% loss.
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/feds-confiscate-masks-meant-for-miami-dade-firefighters/2223847/
https://www.businessinsider.com/cor...-taking-states-masks-ventilator-orders-2020-4
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-04-07/hospitals-washington-seize-coronavirus-supplies
Much less speculation than you saying he could drive on Berlin by himself. Didnt happen in Italy, didnt happen in France. History said it wouldn't have happened in Germany either.
BTW, there were no open flanks in Italy and France because the allies didnt create bulges in their front lines. If you think sending Patton 300 miles behind enemy lines by himself wouldn't have created flanks, you need to freshen up on your military strategies. They would have been sending the airborne to rescue him.
Patton sent 300 men behind enemy lines without permission from Bradley to rescue one man, his son in law. 300 men went in, only 34 made it back. They didnt get the son-in-law.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/fe...s-hammelburg-raid-to-free-his-son-in-law.html
So here Patton is again like trump... getting Americans killed for the benefit of his son-in-law.
The 101st in Bastogne were depleted badly, fighting men were dwindling and they were running out of ammo. The 101st was brave and would have fought until the last man was dead or out of ammo. They were also supported by the 333rd Artillery Regiment - The Black Battalion, that was relegated to only using a handful of shells per day and were given rifles to defend the front line.
Bastogne was one of the key objective’s of the Germans. The Germans had no chance of success without the city because of the main crossroads. Bastogne was the key village with 7 main thoroughfares leading in all directions. That is why the Germans basically through suicide assaults at the town with their troops, tanks and Luftwaffe sorties and why the Allies ordered that it be held at all costs. It’s why Patton was allowed to divert his army and march his men, nearly 100 miles in two days of harsh weather to reinforce Bastogne. If the Germans were able to get Bastogne, the Allies would have been cut in half and Belgium could have been retaken and Paris would have been exposed.
One of the reasons the Germans were losing before Patton arrived on the continent was because of the mere presence of Patton in Dover, England, as the Commander of the First United States Army Group (the Ghost Army). The German high command feared no Allied commander more than Patton and it was ingenious of Eisenhower to put Patton there. Because of Patton’s presence with this fake army, Hitler refused to release his Panzer divisions from the Port of Calais on 06/06/1944 and would not do so for days at the urging of his commanders at the front. Hitler was sure that since Patton was in Dover, the Normandy landings were a diversion. Patton was not even present on the battlefield but his reputation affected the German response.
We can argue Patton’s ethics, ego, and self-grandeur. I would probably agree with you on many points, but don’t be completely influenced by George C. Scott’s portrayal. I know about the son-in-law mission and I don’t disagree with the nonsense of it.
But nonetheless, attempts to politicize Patton in terms of the current virus pandemic is silly.
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Sicily:
Patton was supposed to guard Monty's flank in Sicily by going up the coast road. Instead, he made an additional beach landing up the coast.... took Palermo... raced across northern Sicily to Messina. Hell, most of the time Monty didn't really know where Patton was. And as usual Patton's flank - without Allied ground support - was exposed most of the time. To use modern parlance.... but literally... it's how he rolled in modern tank warfare.
http://hist-sdc.com/images/spotlights/pzc_si43/Campaign_Map_1.jpg
France:
The Third Army under Patton formed in France on August 1st 1944. It raced across France. Patton, in one month... with flanks having no Allied ground support... raced to the Moselle... again... where he was denied gas and supplies in the end of August 1944.
In point of fact.... Patton used the air force to cover his flanks!
In fact, his theatrics masked a deeply learned and analytical military mind. Patton sought to avoid casualties by encircling German armies. In innovative fashion, he partnered with American tactical air forces to cover his flanks as his armored columns raced around static German formations.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/07/george-pattons-summer-1944-victor-davis-hanson/
Another great read by you. I had avoided the Hammelburg Raid because I was not sure how I felt about it.
First, sending a small column with only 300 men to a prison camp over 60 miles away seemed, to me, foolhardy - especially one that was over-crowded with 1200 US POWs and additional Polish prisoners.
I also considered that if a relative of Eisenhower's or Montgomery's were known to be in a prison camp that close.... you can damn well bet that a full force would have been authorized to go liberate it. Damn square.
I think the power structure wanted Patton when they needed him but hated his success. Knowing this, Patton knew a full rescue mission would have been denied. So, he tried a hush-hush small contingent that he thought might slip through. Furthermore, he was out to free his son-in-law because he did not have enough trucks to haul out all of the prisoners.
Then again, being freed from the camp is better than being massacred by the Germans... the Malmedy massacre being well known. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.
Even the most fond of generals made worse mistakes. I never understood the legend of Robert E. Lee after the disaster at Gettysburg. I stood at the launch point of Pickett's charge a number of times wondering how anybody in their right mind would send thousands of men across a mile of open field with a fence to scale right in the middle of it.
Long after the CARE stimulus checks hit MD accounts (1st - 2nd week of April) and long after other governors took early action to prevent garnishment of those checks , Herr Hogan finally got around to issuing an Executive Order to lock the barn door after the horses are gone. He finally signed it on 4/29. Proving, once again, that he is on top of the shutdown and knows what is best for small business and the non-governmental employee tossed out of their job...
Here is the order... Yep.... 4/29
https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/garnishments-4-29-20-1588274273.pdf
Here is the order... Yep.... 4/29
https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/garnishments-4-29-20-1588274273.pdf
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In another 18 months or so, when the CDC releases its final data analysis of COV-19, we will all discover how erroneous medical leaders and politicians making decisions bombed...as in nuclear proportions. This current hoax will go down as quite possibly of the single biggest blunder of the modern medical and political society. I understand in the beginning, when there was no way to be certain, that caution had to prevail. But now we have a grip of reality because we have substantiated data.
I have screamed since mid-March that society should have been isolating and protecting the elderly and the critical from the start with every means possible. The rest of the public, not. For those that want to argue a continuance of economic shut down and Stay at Home orders given the statistics we have, I assume they mean shut down until for another year or so until there is a cure. Because COV-19 isn't going to disappear. Under that analogy of "we can't kill people", we cannot open until there is a cure, period. That argument is so full of fear and blindness. I don't need a medical article from UMPC to show me the data. I understand basic mathematics. Out of all the people tested in Maryland, 18.8% of them have tested positive. That is an easy leap to know with zero uncertainty, that anywhere from 10-18% of the population has or had this virus. The mortality rate is below 1%, even more so factoring in the rate for people under the age of 50.
Move on and open up the politically correct fear and loathing cave door.
UPMC doctor argues COVID-19 not as deadly as feared, says its hospitals will shift back to normal
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/...-its-hospitals-will-shift-back-to-normal.html
I have screamed since mid-March that society should have been isolating and protecting the elderly and the critical from the start with every means possible. The rest of the public, not. For those that want to argue a continuance of economic shut down and Stay at Home orders given the statistics we have, I assume they mean shut down until for another year or so until there is a cure. Because COV-19 isn't going to disappear. Under that analogy of "we can't kill people", we cannot open until there is a cure, period. That argument is so full of fear and blindness. I don't need a medical article from UMPC to show me the data. I understand basic mathematics. Out of all the people tested in Maryland, 18.8% of them have tested positive. That is an easy leap to know with zero uncertainty, that anywhere from 10-18% of the population has or had this virus. The mortality rate is below 1%, even more so factoring in the rate for people under the age of 50.
Move on and open up the politically correct fear and loathing cave door.
UPMC doctor argues COVID-19 not as deadly as feared, says its hospitals will shift back to normal
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/...-its-hospitals-will-shift-back-to-normal.html
BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
New York antibody study estimates 2.7 million New York residents have had the coronavirus
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/new...ents-have-had-the-coronavirus-cuomo-says.html
New York antibody study estimates 2.7 million New York residents have had the coronavirus
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/new...ents-have-had-the-coronavirus-cuomo-says.html
I didn't go to Woodstock because I was too busy partying with friends during the summer at Frostburg State, the small college play capital of the world at that time. But starting in December 68 and thru the summer of 69 the Hong Kong flu pandemic eventually killed a hundred thousand in the US alone... that is with a much smaller population in which to spread. Aside from a few newspaper articles, nobody even noticed.... and, why should they... it was just a nasty flu season.
What we have now is not a pandemic.... it's a plandemic. I used to joke about waking up one day and finding that the powers that be had thrown the switch ending our freedoms with half the population not even noticing. Well, I think they've done it... and yes, I think half the folks don't realize it.
We're in a room with a dark bag over our heads. The only thing we hear is a constant voice telling us of the new grim 'total of cases' and the new 'death toll' - as though there are a never ending and ever growing millions out there, once infected, never get well and continue to infect and kill others.
The new ruling oligarchy will take the bag off our heads when they expect we will settle for anything just to get the bag off... even full servitude.
Maryland.gov Dashboard lumps all testing positive as a new 'case' - of which there are now 24,473. They claim only 1,590 have been released from Isolation - understanding quarantine is if you have come in contact and isolation is if you test positive. So, they are suggesting that out of over 24 thousand (starting back in March) only 1,590 are no longer sick? Most people are only mildly sick for two weeks. So what gives? What's going on?
Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic
https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic/
Wow!! Bet this will be ignored.
CDC now lists the deaths from the Kung flu at 37,308... scroll down the page....
Data as of May 1, 2020
When COVID-19 is reported as a cause of death – or when it is listed as a “probable” or “presumed” cause — the death is coded as U07.1
Total Deaths 37,308
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm
CDC now lists the deaths from the Kung flu at 37,308... scroll down the page....
Data as of May 1, 2020
When COVID-19 is reported as a cause of death – or when it is listed as a “probable” or “presumed” cause — the death is coded as U07.1
Total Deaths 37,308
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm
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That link was an incredible read, whether one agrees or not. I shared this link with all the DelFest community on facebook.
What I think has changed the most between 1968 and 2020? After all this is a forum for opinions.
1. THE MEDIA
2. LIABILITY
Sure there are plenty of avenues and alleys responsible for spreading fear, misinformation and isolation mandates in 2020, but the media coverage of COV and its effect has been the biggest eye opener in my lifetime. Yep, I've known the media was growing into shock and awe slant reporting to see the car wreck and envelope hate for a few decades now ...but nothing to this level. The world is connected to the news now. The competition to bang a penny out of each consumer is massive. The news stories are over 80% opinion based. It's insanity.
As for liability...if I need to explain why insurance companies have most of the Super Bowl commercials afforded on television...never mind. If I have to explain why decision makers at every level are fearful of being responsible for something, never mind.
People: read that link Lag posted. Get some perspective as to how our world has changed. The H3N2 Hong Kong virus of 1968-70 was far more deadly than COV-19 at this point. Yet...nothing was shut down. Nothing. Not even a concert with half a million people crammed in. Woodstock had no soap or sanitizer.
Oh man, how sad what we have become. I have seen some of my closest most intelligent friends be feared into a belief system built on propaganda, political upheaval and liability.
And some people still can't even come to grasp how the German population could ignore the 6+ million Jews killed during the WWII Holocaust as it happened......Propaganda my friends, is a very powerful tool. Now everyone regardless of income level is connected. I once realized this was a wonderful world changing concept. But given the hate and fear America seems to now be engulfed in...may God have mercy on us all.
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In RE: H3N2 - The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimated that in total, the virus killed one million people worldwide.[11]
United States[edit]
The CDC estimated 100,000 people died in the U.S.[12] However, fewer people died during this pandemic than in previous pandemics for various reasons:[13]
- some immunity against the N2 flu virus may have been retained in populations struck by the Asian Flu strains which had been circulating since 1957;
- the pandemic did not gain momentum until near the winter school holidays, thus limiting the infection spreading;
- improved medical care gave vital support to the very ill;
- the availability of antibiotics that were more effective against secondary bacterial infections.
The H3N2 virus killed an estimated 100,000 Americans over a 3 year period. We're barely into the third MONTH of Covid-19 (with safety precautions in place) and already at 70% of that virus' mortality numbers.
I believe the H3N2 comparison is called a red herring. It's not directly relevant.
I believe the H3N2 comparison is called a red herring. It's not directly relevant.
By the numbers, the Hong Kong flu would be third on the list....
The Most Dangerous Epidemics in U.S. History
Medically reviewed by Deborah Weatherspoon, PhD, MSN, RN, CRNA on September 29, 2016 — Written by the Healthline Editorial Team
#1
1633-1634: Smallpox from European settlers
Wiped out a huge portion of Native population
#2
1918: “Spanish flu”
675,000
https://www.healthline.com/health/worst-disease-outbreaks-history#1
Are both pandemics? Are both viruses? Does the CDC and the WHO consider them both virus outbreaks and discuss them in comparative sections of their website? Should everybody just shut-the-hell-up and take whatever message is being handed down.... or, should we inquire, question and make up our own minds?
Thing is.... I watched an interview with Birx just the other day. She claimed 64 thousand Kung flu deaths to date. She also said that Kung flu was very contagious, very widespread and that most people might not even know they have it. The real danger was that individuals who were already ill would have their current conditions worsened by the virus and the elderly were particularly susceptible. The young with underlying conditions, such as diabetes, would have their conditions worsened as well but less likely to die; furthermore, since we don't know every child that has diabetes, we should keep the schools closed.
This seems very compassionate. Birx delivers this message well and if that is all you heard nonstop everyday it would seem completely reasonable to shutdown the country - especially if you are hit with a 64 thousand death total in 6 weeks.
But, I keep scratching my head thinking that if you are elderly then you more than likely have questionable life expectancy from one of the following: hypertension, diabetes, hyperlipidemia, coronary artery disease, dementia, renal disease, COPD, atrial fibrillation, cancer or stroke - (basis NY St Department of Health). So, when those elderly die, if you factor in a highly contagious Kung flu virus, tested or estimated, you can easily get 64 thousand deaths in 6 weeks.... that is, if you want to list them all as a Kung flu death. Remember, only an estimated presence of the virus gets it listed as a Kung flu death.
So consider the response: A national shutdown with projected 47 million unemployed with an unemployment rate to hit maybe 32%. If true, millions will go bankrupt, 10's of thousands will commit suicide (as in the Great Depression), alcoholism, drug abuse, overall poverty, food shortages with starvation, domestic violence and crime.
Speaking of domestic violence, the main resource for reporting child abuse comes from professionals.... that is, the teachers. With the schools closed those reports have obviously disappeared. Now, instead of being rescued, some of those children are showing up at the morgue. Remember, Birx wants schools closed because some diabetic children may be additionally sickened.
Something really stinks.
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The Hong Kong Flu and COV-19 death rates are pretty close to identical. We only need statistics from here on out, not fear. Numbers don't lie no matter how much an opinion wants to twist them and make them more or less valuable.
If you want to twist numbers - or at least apply them from 1968 to 2020, then understand there were 200 million people in the US in 1968, 330 million today. Plugging in the same data, we would have had a quarter of a million dead from Hong Kong Flu today as stated in Lag's link.
If you want to twist numbers - or at least apply them from 1968 to 2020, then understand there were 200 million people in the US in 1968, 330 million today. Plugging in the same data, we would have had a quarter of a million dead from Hong Kong Flu today as stated in Lag's link.
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WCBC: WEST VIRGINIA REOPENS 2nd phase, stay at home orders ended, WVU fall classes to resume regardless of where the curve sits. (applause, applause)
https://www.wcbcradio.com/?news=west-virginia-begins-second-phase-to-reopen-state-today
There is a really strong movement going around (or should we call it a philosophy) that simply states, "If you are fearful of leaving your home, by all means stay at home. But don't force your fears to dictate how others live and die."
Yes, pretty much.
https://www.wcbcradio.com/?news=west-virginia-begins-second-phase-to-reopen-state-today
There is a really strong movement going around (or should we call it a philosophy) that simply states, "If you are fearful of leaving your home, by all means stay at home. But don't force your fears to dictate how others live and die."
Yes, pretty much.
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They are panicking right now. Media is selling a new outbreak. Maybe someone has figured out how to make it happen.... or, at least, fudge the numbers to indicate that it will happen.
All of Europe, including Italy, have reopened and people have gone back to work. Schools opening back up. I expect the rest of America to follow suite very shortly outside of opening schools. As for Maryland and Gov Hogan, he will have no choice. Life will start to resume to a degree. But many businesses will be closed for good.
Italy leads Europe in easing coronavirus lockdown measures
https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...turn-to-work-in-italy-after-weeks-of-lockdown
Italy leads Europe in easing coronavirus lockdown measures
https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...turn-to-work-in-italy-after-weeks-of-lockdown
We can see what Herr Hogan chooses to do.... threaten to arrest a MD Delegate for wanting to hold a rally against the shutdown...
“Threatening a legislator with arrest for exercising his first amendment right to free speech is not only unconstitutional, it is wrong," Parrot said. "We live in a Republic, and I want to make sure that no one person in Maryland or in any other state of the nation should be able to have unchecked power. ”
https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local...yPjbceGOMksSqMhcUuBVz9i267QBXwEfRXi25y3NiB8Sc
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