Class 1A West Week 5 Point Standings

[TDHelmick]

As is posted every week.
Class 1A West Point Totals - Week 5

I usually total these on Sunday but there were cancelled games due to weather that were played yesterday.

There is a great deal of disgust with this football regional set up now coming from more places then just Western Maryland. That's a good thing to see others down state now taking issues with the system because it is severely unjust and flawed. I now expect in the next couple of years something to change.

One aspect I personally am complaining about that makes no sense...no team should be able to receive bonus points when a defeated team beats non-sanctioned schools. There are many examples. One example is with Avalon. Fort Hill was told they could not play Avalon as the MPSSAA would not sanction them. OK, then if Silver Oak beats Avalon later in the year (which won't likely happen) then neither Fort Hill nor Allegany should be able to get that bonus point. Another example would be...if St. James beats Central Maryland Christian then Clear Spring should not get that bonus point. If Hancock beats Maryland School for The Deaf, then Hancock should not get the bonus point for MSD beating Eastern Shore Home School.

If you are confused, allow me to simplify:
If the MPSSAA tells Fort Hill they cannot play Avalon, how can Fort Hill get a bonus point if Silver Oak beats Avalon?

It makes no sense. Just crazy, stupid stuff. If a team is not sanctioned to play, then they cannot be sanctioned to hand out bonus points.

 

[ttturner]

I just looked at the 1A Region standings, and if MD were to run the playoffs like WV (top 16), Allegany would be #3, FH #5 and 7 of the West Region teams would qualify. Only 1 team from 1A North (Manchester Valley) would make it, and they would be #6.
This state system is not right!

 

[FHoldtimer]

I just looked at the 1A Region standings, and if MD were to run the playoffs like WV (top 16), Allegany would be #3, FH #5 and 7 of the West Region teams would qualify. Only 1 team from 1A North (Manchester Valley) would make it, and they would be #6.
This state system is not right!

That would sure cut down the travel expenses - at least for the 1A West teams. lol

 

[bleedred]

I'm still not sold on the 1-16 format. To me, it does nothing to solve the problem as you're still going to have teams "schedule" their way into the playoffs. I like the Pa system where regional play is the only thing that matters for getting into the playoffs. The MPSSAA already has the schools divided into two sections within the Regions, all they have to do is state that these teams must play each other with the #1 and #2 finishers advancing to play the other Sectional leaders. That way, each and every team would have a shot at a post season game, and it would only fill four or five games in a ten game schedule. The rest of the schedule could be with whoever because a loss, or losses to those teams won't keep your team out of the playoffs. You'd still need to keep the point system around, for tie breakers when it comes to seeding teams for the semis, and finals but that's about all you'd need it for. I think that changes are coming, but it's a slow process.

 

[NG Huskies Fan]

I like the idea of a 1-16 format and eliminate the regions completely, honestly what PA is doing is a good start (adding 2 classes), we may not have enough schools in MD to do 6 without including the private schools, but I've said for a long time this is something that MD needs, even add 1 class and have 5. If you're worried about 1A schools that don't have football, just alter the playoffs for 1A and only have top 8 or 12 or something. That would still be an improvement over what we have.

Here's a link to the PA Story on adding classes.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...to-six-classes-next-fall/stories/201510070252

 

[bleedred]

Maryland doesn't need more classes. They just need a system that's fair. With a top 16 format, you will still have teams that will take advantage of the system. Beat the teams that you should and advance.

 

[TDHelmick]

MARYLAND STATE HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL PLAYOFF PROPOSAL
9 Game Regular Season - 8 Team Regional Playoff

Every team makes the post-season. The importance of this structure and the fact it does not change what currently exists is three fold:
1. It keeps the current regional set up - alleviating the expense and hassle of traveling long distance in the first few rounds
2. It does not force teams to play each other - continue to play whoever you wish
3. It does not change the seasonal start and end dates or lengthen the number of games required to win a state title (14 games)

THE FORMAT
· Each team plays a nine game regular season schedule
· Week 10 will be the first round of the playoffs utilizing the top 8 teams in each region. The top 8 teams will be decided and seeded by the current MPSSAA point system. The #1 seed will host the #8 seed, The #2 seed will host the #7 seed, on down the line.
· If there is more than 8 teams in a region, the remaining teams will be seeded according to points and will play each other in a final consolation post-season game...or will be paired with a team from another region who also did not make the playoff round. Every team is guaranteed 10 games. The second option for teams not finishing in the Top 8 is for them to just play a 9 game regular season.

An example of this system using the 2014 regular season point totals for each West Region:

CLASS 1A WEST
2014 FINAL POINT TOTALS AND SEEDING
1. Fort Hill
2. North Carroll
3. Allegany
4. Northern Garrett
5. Manchester Valley
6. Clear Spring
7. Hancock
8. Brunswick
9. Smithsburg
10. Southern Garrett

PLAYOFFS ROUND 1 - November 7
#8 Brunswick at #1 Fort Hill
#7 Hancock at #2 North Carroll
#6 Clear Spring at #3 Allegany
#5 Manchester Valley at #4 Northern Garrett
CONSOLATION GAME (optional)
#10 Southern Garrett at #9 Smithsburg

The top four winners advance to the following week where we normally have the playoffs start.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CLASS 2A WEST
FINAL POINT TOTALS AND SEEDING
1. Oakdale
2. Poolesville
3. Liberty
4. South Carroll
5. Catoctin
6. Walkersville
7. Boonsboro
8. Williamsport
9. Middletown
10. Century
11. Mountain Ridge
12. Winters Mill
13. Francis Scott Key

PLAYOFFS ROUND 1 - November 7
#8 Williamsport at #1 Oakdale
#7 Boonsboro at #2 Poolesville
#6 Walkersville at #3 Liberty
#5 Catoctin at #4 South Carroll
CONSOLATION GAMES (optional)
#12 Winters Mill at #9 Middletown
#11 Mountain Ridge at #10 Century
#13 Francis Scott Key would play the last place seed from the Class 2A South Region

The four winners advance to the following week where we normally have the playoffs start.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CLASS 3A WEST
FINAL POINT TOTALS AND SEEDING
1. Damascus
2. Linganore
3. South Hagerstown
4. Urbana
5. Seneca Valley
6. Rockville
7. Thomas Johnson
8. Tuscarora
9. Watkins Mill
10. Einstein
11. Northwood
12. Frederick
13. Wheaton
14. North Hagerstown

PLAYOFF ROUND 1 - November 7
#8 Tuscarora at #1 Damascus
#7 Thomas Johnson at #2 Linganore
#6 Rockville at #3 South Hagerstown
#5 Seneca Valley at #4 Urbana
CONSOLATION GAMES (optional)
#14 North Hagerstown at #9 Watkins Mill
#13 Wheaton at #10 Einstein
#12 Frederick at #11 Northwood

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PROS
· This format allows teams to play whoever they wish. In doing so it also encourages teams to play a more difficult opponent in anticipation of preparing for the playoffs without fear of losing those games and being out pointed for a playoff spot.
· This format allows league schedules to stay as they are.
· Many teams have a difficult time filling a 10 game schedule. This makes the problem less cumbersome by creating a 9 game schedule.
· This format keeps the regional system in place while maintaining a better travel budget for everyone.
· This format does not lengthen the season as the number of games played to win a state championship remains unchanged at 14 games.
· This format would allow the MPSSAA to collect a larger share of playoff money while relieving traveling expenses for the visiting team in Week 10.

CONS
· Teams who play their rival the last week of the season will be required to bump that last game up one week.
· Teams may end up with one less home game during a 9 game season

 

[TDHelmick]

Keep in mind, you cannot change a system to benefit what the needs of Class 1A West are, you can only change things that benefit everyone. And I'm telling you that the MPSSAA are sticklers for the regional set up so travel isn't extreme and the state accountants like to keep those costs down. I can also tell you that neither the coaches or ADs wish to be forced into playing teams they don't wish to play and the MPSSAA doesn't want to force them into doing so. Especially in situations like we had with the MVAL. Leagues cannot be told how to structure their schedules. As an example: Smithsburg, Hancock, Clear Spring or Northern does not want to be forced to play Fort Hill if they do not wish to do so. They will not vote favorably on that type of scenario.

So keep this in mind when talking about changing the system. And like bleedred says...the WV 1 through 16 alignment isn't all it's cracked up to be. While it's better than what Maryland currently has, it's still a case where teams are trying to schedule their way into the playoffs or at least into a better playoff position where you don't have to travel (just ask Coach Biser). And in Pennsylvania, the knock is that those kids are playing games all the way up until the week before Christmas. To win a state title they need to play 16 games, which is way too much.

My proposal solves all these problems. While there may be better systems, they won't get voted on and passed. This proposal has to agree with most everyone including the money side of it.

 

[bigsavage]

I sure hope they go to a straight 1-16 seeding like WV...

 

[beall02]

I like your idea Todd. I think it makes a lot of sense. The one thing that I like about the current playoff system is that not all teams make the playoffs. And granted, it does put some pressure on the school and coach to make it each year. But I like that it is different from every other sports playoff system.

What would you do with the teams that win those so called "optional games." It would be silly to say that everyone makes the playoffs. A team wins their first game in the playoffs and then because they are below an 8 seed they don't get to move on. We currently have 187 schools that are a part of the MPSSAA. And that changes sometimes on a yearly basis. So to do something that requires a certain amount of teams wouldn't make sense. I honestly think that the WV 1-16 system is the way to go. I do think that if they are creative enough they can come up with a system that rewards a team for playing a tougher schedule and for a team who plays a regional schedule. Maybe you can reward them more "Win points" vs. a team in their region as opposed to just the set amount of points. Example would be that if Fort Hill were to beat Allegany or Northern or Southern they would get more win points for that win then they would get for a win versus a 1A school from outside their region.

I will try and think about something that makes sense and see what I can come up with.

 

[TDHelmick]

beall02 - There are certainly better systems but the issue is getting one that can be passed and voted on successfully. One that everybody agrees on. That is how politics work. It's been made clear that ADs and the MPSSAA like the regional set up as it saves money and travel. The 1-16 proposal has been put on the board before. It won't get voted in. You mentioned how you like the fact not everyone gets in the playoffs. That's great, if teams played each other.

I never said those teams seeded below #8 would be in a playoff, but that they would be included in the post-season (or call it a bowl game or extra game or whatever title you want). Week 9 would be the end of the regular season.

Would love to hear other ideas. But again, please keep in mind that we cannot have Southern traveling to Snow Hill for a first or second round playoff game. And you cannot force teams to play other teams they don't wish to play.

 

[beall02]

I get you now Tood. I just misunderstood the post the first time I read it. I was thinking that you were proposing that every team makes the playoffs. Post season is not the same as playoffs technically speaking. Only problem I see with that system is that if you do have a region with more than 8 teams and you seed those remaining teams and let them play in week 10, why shouldn't they get the chance to move on? I would think you would have to word those games differently.

And while I do understand the regional argument AND it definetly makes sense on why they don't want to go away from it. I would like to see some of or all of the following changes:

1.) Only the Top 16 in point average at the end of the regular season in each class would make the playoffs. Once you have those 16 teams you then make 4 regions out of them based on geography. Seed them 1-4 based on points and put 1 v. 4 and 2 v. 3. The winner of those games play each other and once that round is done you would be down to 4. Seed them 1-4 based on final regular season points and have 4 go to 1 and 3 go to 2. You could also have the semi-finals played at a neutral field. I would personally like the top two teams to have home games though. They have earned it. While this format wouldn't necessarily give them the full "regional" format they are looking for it would avoid the Southern to Snow Hill games in the first two rounds. I think it is the best of both worlds. This format along with the point changes that I outlined below I think could be a pretty good system. I may be missing something though. So what does everyone else think?

2.) No matter what they decide to do about how they get the teams for the playoffs I would like them to do a couple different things when it comes to giving points. I think that a team that plays a team that is their class or higher but loses should still get some amount of points for that teams wins. Don't punish that team that decided to schedule a tougher opponent just because they lost. I like the way the WV gives teams a 1/2 point, I believe it is, in those situations. If they decide to keep the regions they should reward teams for playing and defeating a team in their own region. So as an example, if Fort Hill was to play and defeat Northern, not only would they get 5 points for defeating a Class A team but they should get some type of points for scheduling and defeating that team from their region. Maybe something like they get an additional 50% of what they would normally get. Example would be since they get 5 for defeating Northern, they get an extra 2.5 for Northern being in their region. So now that win is worth 7.5 points not 5. If Mountain Ridge plays and defeats Catoctin they would get 9 points for that win. 6 Because the Cougars are AA and 3 more because they are in their region.

 

[eaglesinsider]

My idea has always been a combination of several different playoff systems. I would have mandatory district/sectional play like the Southern states have, a 1-16 seeding system like WV and a combination of "automatic" and "at-large" bids.

1. District/Sectional Play
- Every team is already divided into sections by the MPSSAA. There are 8 sections in each class. I would ditch the 4 regions and just use the 8 sections.
- Each team must play all teams in their section in the regular season. If they refuse to do so, they cannot make the playoffs.
- An example from the Western region:

Section 1:
- Allegany
- Fort Hill
- Northern
- Southern
- Hancock

Section 2:
- Manchester Valley
- North Carroll
- Brunswick
- Boonsboro
- Clear Spring
- Smithsburg

- The last 4 weeks of the season the Section 1 teams would play all the other Section 1 teams. This fills the last 4 weeks of games for the Section 1 teams so they don't have to scramble to find games and still leaves them with 6 games to schedule. Section 2 has 6 teams so they would play each other the last 5 weeks of the season and have 5 non-section games.

- The winner of each of the 8 sections is given an automatic playoff berth and a sectional championship trophy. In the event of a tie for 1st, the current tiebreakers will be used.

2. 1-16 Seeding would be based on the current points system.
- This rewards teams for beating good teams but since there are automatic bids, it does not necessarily punish them for playing a tough non-conference schedule since they can win their section and get in.

3. 8 "automatic" and 8 "at-large" bids.
- The 8 section winners would be joined in the playoffs by the 8 teams with the highest point totals that didn't win their section. This strikes a balance between rewarding you for winning your section and realizing that some sections are much, much stronger than others. This way if there is a section with 3 or 4 really good teams they can all get into the playoffs.

I'd also let the private schools participate, especially since VA is now letting private schools into the playoffs, meaning that MD is the only state without one private school playing in the state playoffs (TX only has 2, everyone else lets all the privates in). That's a proposal for another thread, however.

 

[beall02]

I have to say that at first glance I really like your idea eaglesinsider. I am all for anything that makes it more difficult to figure out who makes it at the end of the season. Lol. All kidding aside, I like it a lot. I never understood why MD doesn't include the private schools in the playoffs. I just figured it had to do with them starting the season earlier, not always playing just a 10 game regular season, and the fact that they weren't interested in competing for a MD State Championship. You are around those schools more than me... is that something that they want?

 

[Red Dude]

BS to a private school in the public school playoffs. You want to play for a Maryland PUBLIC school title, be a public school. Think you'll ever see a public school in the ACIT??

 

[FHHSAHS]

Keep the regions. Make a minimum of 5 regional games to QUALIFY for the playoffs. Your regional record seeds you for the playoffs. Leave the rest of playoffs the way it is now.

Problem easily solved. It keeps the regions like the MPSSAA wants it and it forces the regions to be meaningful. Teams can still play in conferences if they want, but conferences should not take precedence over regional scheduling. Period.

 

[BrianH1974]

U can't let the private school in and classify them based on enrollment. They all have to compete at 3A or 4A level. Otherwise it's a joke. What does enrollment have to do with sports when you recruit players and hand them scholarships based on sports? If the enrollment is 50 but 45 of them play football what's enrollment got to do with it?

 

[eaglesinsider]

I have to say that at first glance I really like your idea eaglesinsider. I am all for anything that makes it more difficult to figure out who makes it at the end of the season. Lol. All kidding aside, I like it a lot. I never understood why MD doesn't include the private schools in the playoffs. I just figured it had to do with them starting the season earlier, not always playing just a 10 game regular season, and the fact that they weren't interested in competing for a MD State Championship. You are around those schools more than me... is that something that they want?

I don't know that any of the private schools have thought about it much but VA settling that lawsuit from Liberty Christian, who sued for and gained entry for themselves and all other non-boarding private schools into the VHSL, out of court, tells me that the MPSSAA couldn't keep the private schools out if they decided they wanted to be in. The kids would love it, which is what it really should be all about. No other state completely denies kids a chance to win a state championship solely based on their decision to go to a private school.

The only reason the privates start the season earlier and play more than 10 games in the regular season is because the regular season is all they get. If you add the ability to play up to 4 more games, that goes away.

The reason the privates aren't in the playoff system is because MD started playoffs so late. The Baltimore-area privates were already playing in a league that had both public and private schools. The MSA had been around since the 1910s and contained all the Baltimore City public schools and all the Baltimore-area private schools. Many of these teams had been playing each other since the 1870s. It worked quite well and the publics won more than their fair share and the talent was much more balanced than it is today. City and Poly were the equal of any private school.

90% of private schools in any given sport could join the MPSSAA tomorrow and no one would notice. Saint James or Friends or whoever would be 1A schools on enrollment and non-factors in 1A. It's really about 10 schools that recruit per sport. Those are the only ones you'd have to adjust for. My easy solution is that current MIAA/IAAM A and WCAC schools go to 5A (influx of privates necessitates adding a class) in the sports they play in that league regardless of enrollment. MIAA/IAAM B and IAC schools go to 4A. Independents are handled on a case-by-case basis. MAC and MIAA/IAAM C schools are classified by enrollment. The private schools that start out playing 5A/4A with enrollment smaller than that can move down after 4 years with no playoff appearances. An example would be MIAA A Saint Frances. They have about 250 students, co-ed. Saint Frances would be 5A since they play MIAA A football. If they go 4 years without a playoff berth, they move down to 4A. The reverse would be true for a private that dominates a classification for 4 years. If a school is 2A by enrollment and weren't in the MIAA A/B, WCAC or IAC, they'd start out in 2A but if they were dominating that class they move up to 3A.

The McDonogh-Franklin game this year has gotten a lot of people talking about how we need a lot more games between the top public and private schools. I believe the next step is integrated playoffs and the MPSSAA should have a system in place before their hand is forced by a lawsuit.

 

[TDHelmick]

After last week's cancellation between Curley and FH, I can really see a huge difference in the way public and private view the situation. Not saying either philosophy is right or wrong, just different. Curley has no point system to deal with. FH does. That for one keeps them a world apart, so I can see why public and private don't intermix too much on the gridiron. And the MPSSAA has no jurisdiction over private schools so they don't need to follow the same rules or protocols other than age requirements. Again, must stress that I'm not saying there is right or wrong here, just differences in how each view the situation.

 

[ttturner]

I believe either the PA or WV system is better than what we have now. There is a way to handle the travel for a top 16 playoff. I remember there was a time when the playoffs were held on a neutral field at a site approximately half-way for both schools. Just a thought.

 

[eaglesinsider]

Manchester Valley has to love being in the 1A North now.

5-1 and running away with the #1 seed. The next 3 best teams are all 2-4. North Carroll is 1-5 but still play bad 2A FSK and Winters Mill. They beat those two they might make the playoffs at 3-7