Cathedral Prep - Notes and Quotes
- Thread starter TDHelmick
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A lot of great points have been made. Their is no denying that the system Fort Hill uses is extremely effective in small school football.
Correct, FH has no incentive to change anything. They can run the Wing-T down the throat of every team in 1A except for Dunbar. If they changed to a more balanced offense they may get more college looks for their players, but they have made it clear that's not their primary objective. Going to Annapolis every year is a successful season win or lose.
Big Game for ECP this weekend. They are playing there biggest rival, 6-0 Erie-McDowell (High School of Pittsburgh Steeler, James Conner). Game is expected to draw over 8,000 people. Should be a good game. As always Live on ECP Facebook page.
FH would go from a power house 1A school to mountain ridge if they went to a more balanced offense. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, FH doesn’t have the athlete to get out of the wing-T
If anyone in Maryland Class 1A, 2A or 3A played that schedule they would have more losses then wins. McDowell is rolling this year and has 2200 kids in the school.
Outside of the annoying back and forth that goes on here. This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've seen.
When I first read it I agreed with you, but I dont know that it's way far off. I think FH could definitely diversify their *defense*, and would probably fair better against some teams they play, but aside from Dunbar most years, they dont need to in 1A.
However, I dont see the need or success in totally balancing out the offense. Maybe that's where I read hbpass's comments differently. I agree completely with him if he's inferring FH should stick with the base wing-T offense. FH does it spectacularly well, and regardless of how antiquated some people view it compared to the spread and more open offenses, it works for FH 95% of the time. FH has 7 state titles and all but 6 of them are wing T based offenses. Alco has 8 state titles and ALL of them are wing-T offenses. It works.
However, I do think its a complete misconception to say the wing T cant be LESS run focused. You can pass out of the wing T, and even going to the wildcat/single back set (it's still just a variation of the wing T), you can run a few more looks. FH has done that in the past, and maybe they just dont feel they need to this year. But as was shown on the second drive against ECP, opening up the pass is very efficient. But I don't know that I totally disagree with hbpass in that a 50/50 run/pass offense for FH might take away the whole game plan. The wing-T is what FH runs, it's what the coaches know, and as long as the coaching staff is predominantly FH alum, that's probably how it will stay (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).
Last comment, the only thing I wish would really change is that in some of these games where it's obviously going to be lopsided, why not try your passing more? If you cant get the pass dialed up right...work on it some more. Then run FB traps for a series until you get a TD, then try again. If FH loses to Silver Oak or Green Street Academy etc...it wont be because they tried to pass too much.
I was talking about the offense. Guess I should’ve specified, my bad. When I here balance the offense, I think more of a pro style formation, QB under center, single running back and 2 WR. I may have misread the first quote wrong because I thought they were talking about completely changing the formations.
That's the biggest problem they run into. They dont diversify playcalling hardly at all
As had been mentioned, you can also show unconventional looks out of the wing t, but still run the same plays. Splitting the backs up in a pro set look still allows you to run all of the wing t plays, and can actually open up some other possible plays... instead of running the trap with the fullback every play, it's just as easy to now hand it to the halfback for more of a quick-hitter, and the defense can have just as hard a time figuring out who gets the ball.
The linemen still block the same way, all that changes is a little different pre-play positioning. You already teach the lineman to concentrate on the last numbers of the playcalling, so only the backs will have to learn anything new in that regard.
The results that little changes like that can produce can be pretty substantial compared to the small amount of work being needed to implement them.
Good arguments for both sides. 95% of the time, the Wing-T works very well for FH because how many teams do they play that line up basically 7 offensive lineman and pound it at their 4 or 5 man front for 4 quarters straight with a stable of tough RBs? Not a lot.
On the other side, having a few different looks and formations in their bag of tricks would really throw opposing defenses off. If you're scouting FH and preparing for the Wing-T, and going into the 2nd half you've faced it and made adjustments during halftime to load the box... but FH comes out in the gun 4-wide??? You're crapping your pants and scrambling, dude.
The reason the two city schools always ran Wing-T since Refosco brought it to town is because as a system, it creates mis-matches and requires less athletes. Just as you suck everyone in to finally stop your run, the upbacks and TE's can break free for big plays in the pass game. The real disadvantage for defenses is that almost all of the plays start out the same way, so it's very hard to key on tendencies and on what's coming at you. 1st and 10, 3rd and 8 and 4th and Goal at the 1 all look like Groundhog Day.
My position is that both schools would stay Wing-T but throw in different sets and looks. You can run the same plays out of those varied sets, too, so it's not like you'd have to completely reinvent your offense and overload your kids. We ran a trap and an off-tackle play in college out of a spread pretty effectively, which coming from the Wing-T, I'd never even thought about.
If I'm Hansel, among other things, I'd start installing a spread now and not tell anyone about it to get ready for Homecoming. Although at this point, we might not even have the personnel to run it.
On the other side, having a few different looks and formations in their bag of tricks would really throw opposing defenses off. If you're scouting FH and preparing for the Wing-T, and going into the 2nd half you've faced it and made adjustments during halftime to load the box... but FH comes out in the gun 4-wide??? You're crapping your pants and scrambling, dude.
The reason the two city schools always ran Wing-T since Refosco brought it to town is because as a system, it creates mis-matches and requires less athletes. Just as you suck everyone in to finally stop your run, the upbacks and TE's can break free for big plays in the pass game. The real disadvantage for defenses is that almost all of the plays start out the same way, so it's very hard to key on tendencies and on what's coming at you. 1st and 10, 3rd and 8 and 4th and Goal at the 1 all look like Groundhog Day.
My position is that both schools would stay Wing-T but throw in different sets and looks. You can run the same plays out of those varied sets, too, so it's not like you'd have to completely reinvent your offense and overload your kids. We ran a trap and an off-tackle play in college out of a spread pretty effectively, which coming from the Wing-T, I'd never even thought about.
If I'm Hansel, among other things, I'd start installing a spread now and not tell anyone about it to get ready for Homecoming. Although at this point, we might not even have the personnel to run it.
“80 Series” passing is what we called our pass offense out of the Wing-T in the 1990s at FH. It was simple but effective and not complicated. In 1997, we did not need to pass much at all but we could when had to or wanted to. History is lost to time but 1998 FH had to pass and had about 1100 yards passing on the year and it took that team to the 2A title game for the 3rd consecutive year (4th in 5 years).
It was not uncommon for FH back then to line up with a WR split on each side with a TE and two RB’s and someone going in motion. Hitches, Slants, Slant & Gos, TE Pops, TE Middle Screens, FB Middle Screens, WR Bubble Screens, and Waggles were all ran out of slight variations to the Wing-T set. 80 Series involved quick 3 step and 5 step drop backs. FH had the athletes and line to run this back then and they still do now. We were never in the shotgun. FH was never world-beaters at passing but they could do it with average QBs to compliment the run. I have not witnessed the 80 Series in years. The 2-minute offense was 80 Series back then. We were drilled on it.
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I just watched the game yesterday, and here is my take. It was the best Ive seen Collin Johnson, and I do think its directly related to the lack of a pass rush. I dont think it would of mattered who covered Odekoven or Carson, it was way to easy.
I was surprised how quick Fort Hill went away from any semblance of a passing game, its pretty obvious that's out of the coach's comfort zone. I think Prep was just a different caliber team than Fort Hill has seen this year. Having said that, based on what I'm reading here Fort Hill has a better chance to repeat than Prep, and that' s all that counts. Prep is probably the underdog against McDowell on Friday, and the parking is going to be a bitch!
Anyway good luck the rest of the year and I hope to see Fort Hill in Erie next year.
That is an extremely valid point. We can talk about the coverage all day, but there is not a secondary in the world that can cover for 10 seconds while the QB just stands there comfortable with zero pass rush. That is what happened for sure. With a pass rush he could not have hit those deep balls so accurately every time.That would not have been the case last year as FH was blessed with sack monsters all over the DL. They all departed as did the entire defense. Although on the flip side FH would not have scored as the offense was way behind until late season.
We keep public and private completely separate in Maryland, that is a big difference.
How much different would your schedule look if you played Maryland 1a private schools in the regular season or playoffs? Are there any decent private schools at that level?
FH ran the I formation very successfully in the 80’s not the wing T. It was power football with some play action. FH didn’t start running the wing t until the 90’s
The problem, or should I say difference, with private schools is that enrollments do not matter when it comes to being competitive in athletics. If you have an enrollment of 120 students, but 70 of them have been brought in to play football then what does enrollment matter?
But to answer your question...St. Frances of Baltimore, who is currently the No. 1 ranked team in the country, is a 1A school in Maryland. In other words, if Fort Hill picked them up on the schedule, they are worth 1A points. In Cumberland there is a private school called Bishop Walsh. They have 130 students in grades 9-12. But their boys basketball team will be a Top 50 team in the country this season if not higher.
I never knew St Francis enrollment was that small and I see your point about playing a team like that. Definetly apples to oranges. Was their rise due to the coach pumping all kinds of money into the program? I seem to remember ESPN doing a story on that. Aren't other Catholic schools around Baltimore refusing to play them, so they just have a national schedule? I'm honestly asking these questions because they seem like an exceptional case.
At this point Im agnostic on the whole public /private argument in PA. With 6 classes the playoffs have been so watered down now what's the difference. My best guess is if it happens the Catholic schools willl go back to the PCIAA that existed before they were allowed in the PIAA. That still wont solve the Charter Schools that have no boundries and the home district pays the tuition. i.e Imotep Charter out of Philly. Prep's schedule will hardly change in the regular season, and the playoffs will have probably 2 classes with Pittsburgh CCC in the West and ST Joes Prep and Archbishop Wood in the East being the main competition. Winning that would actually be more of an accomplishment than 4A open as it stands now. St Joes would be the favorite most years.
The Superintendent of the MIllcreek SD (McDowell -Prep's next opponent) is one of the leaders in advocating seperate playoffs for public / private schools.
Dematha has 870 Total 9-12 Grade so 3 Grades for sure makes them a 1A Maryland School
DeMatha is an all boys school so their enrollment would be doubled.
There are a few private schools with strong programs that would be in 1A in Maryland--there are not that many really small schools in Maryland so anyone in classes 1A-3A in Pennsylvania, as well as some of Class 4A, would be 1A in Maryland. Aside from St. Frances, there would also be McDonogh (nationally ranked in the recent past and a powerhouse in many sports), Bullis (beat 4A state champs Quince Orchard last year), and National Christian (assembling a lot of talent). Probably Landon too but not sure of their high school enrollment. Bishop McNamara would be on the near 1A/2A line.
1A basketball would be insane.
Biff Poggi, one of the St. Francis coaches, has money to throw around. He used to be the Head Coach at the Gilman school in Baltimore where he apparently made few friends among other coaches. The other Catholic schools beef with St. Francis is that they recruit nationally, not just locally, so they see it as an uneven playing field.
The cool part about Maryland is that I never got a sense the private schools really wanted to be a part of the public system in sports. A prime example is a long time nationally recognized basketball tournament held here in Cumberland for the last 60 years called the Alhambra Invitational. There used to be some really good PA catholic hoop teams come here every year from Philly like Roman Catholic and Father Judge. When PA decided to merge with the private schools those teams could no longer participate in that tournament which is held way late after most state titles have been long over. DeMatha out of Hyattsville, MD would never, ever join the public system even if we all merged. Our state public hoop teams can play a max of 20 games. I think DeMatha plays like 40 games. Both Baltimore and DC have a boat load of great private school hoop teams. It would be extremely unfair to the public schools to include them in a playoff system for any of the big sports.
Also, yes I am very familiar with the PIAA movement to separate public from private. I fully support it because they both operate by a complete different set of rules, standards and practices. One is not better than the other, just way different to put them on the same playing field.
I never though Dunbar wanted to have to play in the MPSSAA, at least in basketball. For the same reasons you mentioned. They were playing in tournaments against top teams from around the country and globe. Having to play for a Maryland state title seemed like a step down.
True that. I am assuming it was most all the other sports outside of basketball that a school like Dunbar would take into account when moving into the MPSSAA. Don't quote me on this, but I am also going to assume that you cannot be in the MPSSAA for only certain sports. In other words, I don't think Dunbar can compete in the MPSSAA for all sports and then pull out for just basketball. Never heard of that.
I think I read a story in the Sun, many years ago, on how Dunbar was going to petition the MPSSAA, or had wanted to, to be given an exemption to be an independent in basketball. MPSSAA said they had to partake by their guidelines for all sports.
I figured it was sometime during the 80's that y'all made the switch, but never knew exactly when. Dude in an earlier posts says it was 1988. If so, do we know why?
Watch the ‘88 Homecoming game on YouTube. FH was in the I.
Small line, small guards. FH went to wing-t as their primary scheme in 89. Alkire came over from BW as O coordinator which lead the change
i thought it was 1990, but ok 1988. Before then it was the I
The public school argument in PA is that Catholic /Private are nonboundry schools that can recruit. Using Prep an example, every student, athlete or not, is recruited-Catholic elementary schools have a day for 8th graders to go to Prep or Villa where they are recruited. Prep enrollment is at 496 (all boys) 9-12. Tuition is $9826, just initiated a $3,000 scholarship program. Also, the public argument is that an athlete can go there regardless of boundry, which is true. However, any student can go to any public school outside their home District if one-they are willing to pay an approved tuition rate, and two the District they applied to accepts them, which they are under no obligation to. The school board can waive tuition and do in many cases for teachers' kids.I used to be employed by the Commonwealth of PA, as a school auditor, and MIllcreek SD had about 100 students from the City of Erie paying tuition-this was a bout 5 years ago. The reason Prep has an exceptional program is because of Mike Mischler, when he leaves, without an exceptional new coach, the program will go downhill. This happened in the 90s before Mischler, and the program took a dip when he left for a few years around 2006? The vast majority of Prep football players live in Erie and Millcreek (suburb) most have a family history coming through the Erie Catholic school system. If you are in the PIAA you must abide by the practice start date, transfer and eligibility rules of the PIAA. Of course I do have a bias since I went through the Catholic School system.
Can a public school student in Maryland go to another SD other than his own?
Totally correct Linemen!! I have ties to Mburg, same thing has been stated. The WR ur refuring to had a bright future at WV as a Wide out but other avenues got in the way. But for the QB, he held his own at his tenure at WV, made the best of the position switch at the college level
I loved the pass play on the first play of the game. I’m trying to remember the last time i seen a FH team open up with a pass play.And it went for over 20 yards. Correct me if I’m wrong,I think they threw 3-4 times in the 1st Q. And it worked. But after that didn’t see another pass play. Not saying the passing would of made a difference, but if your having a little success throwing against a team like prep , maybe should of kept with that
I drive thru 2 to take my son to school everyday, mind you he went there before we moved out of the sd.. but it happens.. as far as a kid leaving one school for another for one sport or another probably not going to fly so much without some backlash..lol.. but there's always gmail's house to "move too" around here.. that's just the good ol boy method.. Todd could break you down on the legit methods of athletes moving around the city.. but it happened and sure happening somewhere in the county as we speak...
Do you have to pay tuition to the educating sd if its not where you live? The whole basis of the public/private argument is privates have an unfair advantage because they have no geographic boundary. If you can send your child to another SD outside of where you live that kind of makes that mute.
This does not include schools like ST Francis which is a whole other animal with a national draw, they certainly operate at another level.
