You could say that about any team high school- professional. If any QB has time to scan the field he’ll pick you apart. Good QB pressure and good pass defense go hand in hand.
Cathedral Prep - Notes and Quotes
- Thread starter TDHelmick
- Start date
At least bashing FH and Coach Appel is leaving Coach Hansel alone.
I thought #9 Was the best player in the stadium and couldn't understand why they stayed in the same defense the whole game and especially right before half down 14-7
I think for the
I look at it this way.. FH has 300 some odd days to prepare for Cathedral. That's 300 some odd days to learn how to atleast properly defend a spread offense. Read a book on it, watch videos on how to defense it. You may not be able to make up the talent gap but good coaches can properly scheme for it. I think we're all in agreement that a single safety playing tight bump and run coverage against more athletic receivers is not the way. We already know FH can play run defense. We already know FH can run the ball. I would like to see them concentrate on learning how to stop the pass by being in the proper coverage and defense. I would like to see them stick with the pass when thats the only thing the defense is giving you.
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I thought to myself if you can't look at #9 and #35 and tell who was the more dangerous receiver then its going to be along night. It would be like starring into the FH backfield and not being able to recongnize who the gamebreaker is...
There is no changing the formula. I already know what's coming the next 5 weeks. Hit it, Trap, Rocket, Jet sweep until it is 49-7 midway into a 3rd qtr running clock. If there comes a time where FH needs to throw to win, they wont. But seeing the competition is what it is they only run that risk vs. Dunbar. I sound like Boyz now. So I do know the deal and can be honest. But 1A is what FH is so go do it and win.
Boy this Appel discussion is for the shitz. Let's change it to bashing Hansel, the coach without a team.
Also keep in mind I have 2 cousins that play for Alco and Braddock. The 7th grader asked me why Alco runs the same plays over and over again. To his untrained young eye that is what he sees in the raw. Basically both Alco and FH are stuck in the time trap together. Honestly, the only time we see ground and pound is when local area teams play. Every single opponent outside this area is spread. Every single one. Morgantown, Hollidaysburg, ECP, Hedgesville, Green St all spread. ALL SPREAD.
So I pose to all those spread teams like we ask in Cumberland, why can't you line up in the I formation and pound it from time to time? It's called balance
So I pose to all those spread teams like we ask in Cumberland, why can't you line up in the I formation and pound it from time to time? It's called balance
Yeah, it's the adjusting that was bad, not necessarily the scheme.
If your hoping to apply pressure and get to the quarterback quick, bump and run makes sense... until you realize that you arent getting to the quarterback.
A long time ago a coach told me that having fast players always makes coaches look smarter than they are, and I suppose that goes the other way too; they can make the other coach look dumber than he actually is.
They can make things happen regardless of the scheme against them.
I think FH had a lot of that happening to them last week.
Phew! I was starting to worry that reality had turned upside down with all the civil discussion on here.
Then Monkey316 came whining again and I realized that Thanos had not yet snapped his fingers. Some things really never do change.
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Mckenney leaving has certainly hurt with the way they have been able to get pressure here in the early part of the season. John was able to dial a lot of things that would assist in getting pressure which at the high school level is arguably the most important part of pass coverage. He was also an GREAT evaluator of talent, and would find his guys and stick to them on the D-Line. So far this year I've seen at least 3 or 4 different combinations on the D-Line for FH.
FH’s Dline last year was made up of fast, strong athletes, McKenny is a great coach. He said himself that last years d front may have been the best he’s coached. That’s quite a compliment from a guy that has coached some great D fronts
But you still honor a contract!!!! They made the trip so should we.
Appel is a good coach, but when has he ever proven to be a great tactician? Who was expecting amazing halftime adjustments?
You hit the nail on the head. I have only one example and that was the Sherando game. Since then, haven't seen it.
There is one thing that I don't think people think about. FH has no passing game, they don't work on the passing game, so when you scout a team and they run a spread, how do you prepare for it? Can you imagine a practice where FH runs nothing but the spread in order to prepare their defense? I can't. Can you imagine who would run the spread and how it would look? I can't. If the D only practices against run run run, you can't expect them to be prepared for a Cathedral or a Dunbar. Thoughts?
That's false. Todd always has the defense practicing against whatever the opposing team is running that week. They scout rigorously and run plays against the defense that the opposing team runs, is it an exact emulation? No, not really. But Their still preparing against it. If the scheme FH is using is the right one is another question. The difference between FH and a team like Cathedral is talent and speed. Can good coaching and scheme help you out in that situation? Sure it can, but the coaches can only do so much when the difference in those two areas is that wide
There were no adjustment that he could've made at halftime the other night that would've won them that football game.
Man... I don't check the board for like a week and come back to find some positive, mostly logical dialogue with minimal emotion and whining? Good to see things are headed in a positive direction.
Todd nailed the overview, which he always does, so here are your other items in no particular order:
- First off, y'all needed this game. If you're making a title run, which FH is, then you need a tough game to struggle with and face diversity. Absolutely no shame at all in getting beat by a bigger, stronger, faster, more athletically gifted and well coached team that plays at a high level. Plus they run the spread very well and throw the ball all over the field. This game nets out to a good loss, which sounds bad but it will help FH come playoff time.
- Todd mentioning 43 times in his interview about haters, a lot of people wanting to see FH lose, etc. is crap. He's too successful of a coach and runs too good of a program to sound so insecure and say that in public. If I'm a FH parent, coach, the principal, etc. I'd just rather Todd not talk to the media, especially after a game when the emotions run high. It's not personal - it's just clear that he's not good at it.
- Having Danny King run somewhere around 1.5 miles back and forth from the end of the play, to the sideline to get the call, back to the huddle, then do it all over again around what, 75 times per game, then expecting him to hit field goals from the same distances that probably 50% of Division I kickers struggle with, with no warm up reps, time to mentally prepare, or any warm up reps for his snapper or holder, is dumb.
I get that at the time, it's the only card FH really has to play. But you have a better shot if you call a timeout, let the operation get as ready as they can, and then take a shot at it. If in that exact same situation you think you can do it as good or better than D1 programs and NFL teams can do it, then hey, maybe you're really just that good and are at the wrong level. But it hasn't worked out that way yet that I know of. Plus, like Money said, King is having to really eat into the play clock on every snap running back and forth.
- Was it a complete surprise to FH or to anyone that these guys ran a spread and threw it so much? Because if their offense actually wasn't a surprise, then we have another Cumberland issue here that didn't help FH's D. It's crazy, I know.... but there are actually high school teams that don't just employ two corners and one safety to make up their entire secondary. You can pull a LB and put another DB on the field to help scheme-up against an offense like CP. If this were Alco, I'd be saying the exact same thing. Some of y'all touched on it in earlier threads, the FH defensive scheme wasn't even close. Two college coaching buddies of mine will tell you that as the spread offense gained momentum, the best coordinators started building spread defenses. But we'll consolidate way before any of our teams even consider that.
Ok that's all.. sorry it was so long, and no, I don't expect you to care
Todd nailed the overview, which he always does, so here are your other items in no particular order:
- First off, y'all needed this game. If you're making a title run, which FH is, then you need a tough game to struggle with and face diversity. Absolutely no shame at all in getting beat by a bigger, stronger, faster, more athletically gifted and well coached team that plays at a high level. Plus they run the spread very well and throw the ball all over the field. This game nets out to a good loss, which sounds bad but it will help FH come playoff time.
- Todd mentioning 43 times in his interview about haters, a lot of people wanting to see FH lose, etc. is crap. He's too successful of a coach and runs too good of a program to sound so insecure and say that in public. If I'm a FH parent, coach, the principal, etc. I'd just rather Todd not talk to the media, especially after a game when the emotions run high. It's not personal - it's just clear that he's not good at it.
- Having Danny King run somewhere around 1.5 miles back and forth from the end of the play, to the sideline to get the call, back to the huddle, then do it all over again around what, 75 times per game, then expecting him to hit field goals from the same distances that probably 50% of Division I kickers struggle with, with no warm up reps, time to mentally prepare, or any warm up reps for his snapper or holder, is dumb.
I get that at the time, it's the only card FH really has to play. But you have a better shot if you call a timeout, let the operation get as ready as they can, and then take a shot at it. If in that exact same situation you think you can do it as good or better than D1 programs and NFL teams can do it, then hey, maybe you're really just that good and are at the wrong level. But it hasn't worked out that way yet that I know of. Plus, like Money said, King is having to really eat into the play clock on every snap running back and forth.
- Was it a complete surprise to FH or to anyone that these guys ran a spread and threw it so much? Because if their offense actually wasn't a surprise, then we have another Cumberland issue here that didn't help FH's D. It's crazy, I know.... but there are actually high school teams that don't just employ two corners and one safety to make up their entire secondary. You can pull a LB and put another DB on the field to help scheme-up against an offense like CP. If this were Alco, I'd be saying the exact same thing. Some of y'all touched on it in earlier threads, the FH defensive scheme wasn't even close. Two college coaching buddies of mine will tell you that as the spread offense gained momentum, the best coordinators started building spread defenses. But we'll consolidate way before any of our teams even consider that.
Ok that's all.. sorry it was so long, and no, I don't expect you to care
I totally get it. Ita a formula that works fo
Those are valid questions. My answer to that is you have to start somewhere. Life is about growth. A child learns how crawl before they can walk. They walk before they run. But with practice and repetition we get there. It becomes effortless. It becomes proficient, to some more than others it becomes graceful. This is why I said they have 300 and some old days to prepare for Cathedral because it is a process. A process to put yourself in the best possible position to succeed. They've mastered the wing-t. They've mastered run defense. Which is fine and suitable for the 1a of competition. But if you're going to play teams of higher caliber then you're going to have to be more fluid and less rigid in the way you approach the game. We see more and more teams at every level running the spread formation with a read option. If you're going face these teams its only prudent to learn about them. There is tons of videos, literature, lectures on how to run it and stop it. Hopefully, FH will be less stubborn with their refusal to change with the time and more willing to learn from their mistakes. Once again, the system they run works and is fine for 1a and I'm not advocating a complete overhaul. I'm simply saying learn to be able to adjust to your environment and know your opponent!
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Man... I don't check the board for like a week and come back to find some positive, mostly logical dialogue with minimal emotion and whining? Good to see things are headed in a positive direction.
Todd nailed the overview, which he always does, so here are your other items in no particular order:
- First off, y'all needed this game. If you're making a title run, which FH is, then you need a tough game to struggle with and face diversity. Absolutely no shame at all in getting beat by a bigger, stronger, faster, more athletically gifted and well coached team that plays at a high level. Plus they run the spread very well and throw the ball all over the field. This game nets out to a good loss, which sounds bad but it will help FH come playoff time.
- Todd mentioning 43 times in his interview about haters, a lot of people wanting to see FH lose, etc. is crap. He's too successful of a coach and runs too good of a program to sound so insecure and say that in public. If I'm a FH parent, coach, the principal, etc. I'd just rather Todd not talk to the media, especially after a game when the emotions run high. It's not personal - it's just clear that he's not good at it.
- Having Danny King run somewhere around 1.5 miles back and forth from the end of the play, to the sideline to get the call, back to the huddle, then do it all over again around what, 75 times per game, then expecting him to hit field goals from the same distances that probably 50% of Division I kickers struggle with, with no warm up reps, time to mentally prepare, or any warm up reps for his snapper or holder, is dumb.
I get that at the time, it's the only card FH really has to play. But you have a better shot if you call a timeout, let the operation get as ready as they can, and then take a shot at it. If in that exact same situation you think you can do it as good or better than D1 programs and NFL teams can do it, then hey, maybe you're really just that good and are at the wrong level. But it hasn't worked out that way yet that I know of. Plus, like Money said, King is having to really eat into the play clock on every snap running back and forth.
- Was it a complete surprise to FH or to anyone that these guys ran a spread and threw it so much? Because if their offense actually wasn't a surprise, then we have another Cumberland issue here that didn't help FH's D. It's crazy, I know.... but there are actually high school teams that don't just employ two corners and one safety to make up their entire secondary. You can pull a LB and put another DB on the field to help scheme-up against an offense like CP. If this were Alco, I'd be saying the exact same thing. Some of y'all touched on it in earlier threads, the FH defensive scheme wasn't even close. Two college coaching buddies of mine will tell you that as the spread offense gained momentum, the best coordinators started building spread defenses. But we'll consolidate way before any of our teams even consider that.
Ok that's all.. sorry it was so long, and no, I don't expect you to care
all great points!
We wouldn't know... So with your mentality are you saying don't even try? We should just quit and give up? I'm asking in sincerity
I'm not saying dont try, but honestly to me it looked like they rolled over after the score before the half. FH didnt seem to have the talent on defense to match what cathedral was doing offensively. So to me adjustments the other night wouldnt really have done much better for them.
What Coney said.
All FH has seen every game is the spread. The last 2-3 seasons all FH sees is the spread. That is what most everyone outside this area runs. It's not like they don't understand or don't have a plan to defense it. That is all they practice against seemingly each week. Against Morgantown and Hollidaysburg the problem was not covering the pass, it was getting gashed on huge runs by the QB or good RB out of the spread. As I mentioned in another thread, in the spread, when the ball carrier gets past the 2nd level it is a TD/long gainer unless the safety can make the tackle.
FH coaches watched every ECP game on video. They showed the ability to run the ball with power and and that was the concern preparing all week. FH even moved a first time starter sophomore to safety and the safety to corner in an effort to minimize the run with their best tacklers. All of the sudden the game starts and ECP comes out throwing every down against guys put in there to tackle. It was the best passing performance of that QBs career according to their own head coach. FH tried different people after realize such. King went to safety after halftime, Webb went back to corner. But that was not the problem...
It was the scheme adjustment that FH never made after getting burned via the pass that made the scoreboard lopsided. FH wasn't going to win that game either way as they were outmanned obviously. I was mostly disappointed the FH corners were up so tight in coverage. Put a cushion in there. You can stay in man coverage and back off, make them throw short. At least try something different. It's easier to cover when you can see the QB. When you are up tight and they are going deep all the DB can do is chase everything from behind. Not a good coverage option. And that is all FH was doing, chasing from behind on coverage.
I don't have an answer as to getting a pass rush. ECP knew how to pass block with athletes and the FH smallish defensive line was not a good match up for them. I told everyone here before the game it was the FH defense that is the huge concern. BINGO! What did fans expect? 11 new guys. Not equipped to handle a team like that especially in week 4. If this game was last year, the FH offense gets shut out as they were big time struggling. That is the problem for a 1A squad even at the FH level of success. You graduate kids and hope the class behind them can fill the holes. You just hope there are not 11 holes to fill.
On a positive note, pretty much this entire defense will return for FH next season.
All FH has seen every game is the spread. The last 2-3 seasons all FH sees is the spread. That is what most everyone outside this area runs. It's not like they don't understand or don't have a plan to defense it. That is all they practice against seemingly each week. Against Morgantown and Hollidaysburg the problem was not covering the pass, it was getting gashed on huge runs by the QB or good RB out of the spread. As I mentioned in another thread, in the spread, when the ball carrier gets past the 2nd level it is a TD/long gainer unless the safety can make the tackle.
FH coaches watched every ECP game on video. They showed the ability to run the ball with power and and that was the concern preparing all week. FH even moved a first time starter sophomore to safety and the safety to corner in an effort to minimize the run with their best tacklers. All of the sudden the game starts and ECP comes out throwing every down against guys put in there to tackle. It was the best passing performance of that QBs career according to their own head coach. FH tried different people after realize such. King went to safety after halftime, Webb went back to corner. But that was not the problem...
It was the scheme adjustment that FH never made after getting burned via the pass that made the scoreboard lopsided. FH wasn't going to win that game either way as they were outmanned obviously. I was mostly disappointed the FH corners were up so tight in coverage. Put a cushion in there. You can stay in man coverage and back off, make them throw short. At least try something different. It's easier to cover when you can see the QB. When you are up tight and they are going deep all the DB can do is chase everything from behind. Not a good coverage option. And that is all FH was doing, chasing from behind on coverage.
I don't have an answer as to getting a pass rush. ECP knew how to pass block with athletes and the FH smallish defensive line was not a good match up for them. I told everyone here before the game it was the FH defense that is the huge concern. BINGO! What did fans expect? 11 new guys. Not equipped to handle a team like that especially in week 4. If this game was last year, the FH offense gets shut out as they were big time struggling. That is the problem for a 1A squad even at the FH level of success. You graduate kids and hope the class behind them can fill the holes. You just hope there are not 11 holes to fill.
On a positive note, pretty much this entire defense will return for FH next season.
The last play of the first half was really all you needed to see to know FH was better off just getting out of dodge without any injuries. FH played the perfect defense, jam the receiver at the line and force him inside where you have safety help but it was all for not because the pass was dropped in a bucket to the receiver. Even when the defense was in the right spots, great offense beats great defense.
I like this kind of discussion, thank goodness.
I agree with pretty much everyone, I think it's fairly obvious where the issues are, and its the same year in and out. The D was outmanned. They may have prepared as well as they can, but they were outmanned by a team that could switch from a run heavy team to a very efficient passing team. ECP had the personnel and the coaching wherewithall to do it. It doesn't happen often, but FH was completely outcoached in this game. And that was exacerbated by what seemed to be a lack of adjustments from the FH side.
I will repeat what Coney said, running King to the sideline for every play is stupid. I think its dumb enough to have any QB run to the sideline after every play, but doing it with your kicker? I highly doubt King will make any FG's over 50 yards this year, and will probably have his worst year ever in accuracy.
BUT
Having said that, he showed shades of being a pretty darn good QB on the second scoring drive for FH. That was a very well called, well executed drive. Some run, some passing, a screen pass (wtf?!) the QB ran well, etc... it worked SO well...that FH completely went away from it. I dont know, I guess they had already thrown in the towel at that point. I would've liked to see that more. My guess would be Coach Shook was given a little more free range on that drive, it worked, and then he was told not to do that anymore. Totally a guess, but I'm probably right.
Look, really aside from the fun of talking X's and O's...the bottom line is this. Fort Hill is who we thought they were. And always will be. Some years they will just blow through the 1A as a small school that plays bigger than they are. And some years they will blow through the 1A but lose a couple games against teams that are better than them. This could've been a really good learning experience for the FH defense, but I think really the best lesson from this will be the lesson in humility and how to deal with losing- the D will not change. And really, they wont even have to consider changing until the semis or the finals, barring injuries and upsets. The next 7 weeks of football will be pretty much formulaic as usual. Staying injury free is their biggest challenge now.
I agree with pretty much everyone, I think it's fairly obvious where the issues are, and its the same year in and out. The D was outmanned. They may have prepared as well as they can, but they were outmanned by a team that could switch from a run heavy team to a very efficient passing team. ECP had the personnel and the coaching wherewithall to do it. It doesn't happen often, but FH was completely outcoached in this game. And that was exacerbated by what seemed to be a lack of adjustments from the FH side.
I will repeat what Coney said, running King to the sideline for every play is stupid. I think its dumb enough to have any QB run to the sideline after every play, but doing it with your kicker? I highly doubt King will make any FG's over 50 yards this year, and will probably have his worst year ever in accuracy.
BUT
Having said that, he showed shades of being a pretty darn good QB on the second scoring drive for FH. That was a very well called, well executed drive. Some run, some passing, a screen pass (wtf?!) the QB ran well, etc... it worked SO well...that FH completely went away from it. I dont know, I guess they had already thrown in the towel at that point. I would've liked to see that more. My guess would be Coach Shook was given a little more free range on that drive, it worked, and then he was told not to do that anymore. Totally a guess, but I'm probably right.
Look, really aside from the fun of talking X's and O's...the bottom line is this. Fort Hill is who we thought they were. And always will be. Some years they will just blow through the 1A as a small school that plays bigger than they are. And some years they will blow through the 1A but lose a couple games against teams that are better than them. This could've been a really good learning experience for the FH defense, but I think really the best lesson from this will be the lesson in humility and how to deal with losing- the D will not change. And really, they wont even have to consider changing until the semis or the finals, barring injuries and upsets. The next 7 weeks of football will be pretty much formulaic as usual. Staying injury free is their biggest challenge now.
As I've stated we wouldn't know because none were made.. You stated, "looked like they rolled over after the score before the half. " I didnt notice this. I saw a team fighting their heart out despite being ill prepared. But if they did maybe that's a reflection of something greater that can be attributed to the lack of adjustments. Look, who would have thought FH could win against Sherando being down 14 at the half. An adjustment was made and FH looked like world betters. They're called adjustments for a reason. They're made for a reason. They tend to mask deficiencies or magnify them if they're not made. What I would not do ever is adopt a defeatest attitude and not try...
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With FH's inability to defend the pass stopping the run would be the least of my concerns. FH has always been successful at stopping the run. Having one safety trying to cover the whole entire back half is inexcusable. Playing tight bump and run is inexcusable. You pretty much know what you're getting with teams like cathedral, Martinsburg and Dunbar to some extent. Trying to match up man for man athlete for athlete is a recipe for disaster.
No reason to even go out and play the second half then. If you cant win, dont even try.
Agree on schematics, except if you were at the Morgantown game you could easily see FH is not good at stopping the run against the spread. Struggled at Hollidaysburg as well. TD runs of 70, 80, 40 yards looked easy in Morgantown until the defense adjusted. Even then the runs were only limited. Motown just could not stop FH to save their life and the Sentinels just chewed the clock the rest of the game. Super young defense. There are growing pains.
Keep in mind we are talking FH football. For as long as I remember (Lattimer, Calhoun, Lattimer Jr., Appel) FH does one thing very good and they do it over and over and over. Repetition, repetition, repetion...until you have done something so many times you can do it in your sleep. That was, is and will be the Fort Hill way, especially offensively. We can complain all we want but the results are the best in the state when it comes to wins and losses.
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You should be appointed official spokesperson for the team. Do all media interviews and correspondence.
Well I do a lot of local radio talking FH. Even have done some pregame talk. But I am not a coach and obviously not at practice everyday. But thanks. I do love football. Since I no longer live in Baltimore you can find me hanging out in the bleachers, sometimes in the rain watching a JV game between Frankfort and Mountain Ridge playing armchair QB. I know a good many parents and their children so it makes it nice to share with them over a stadium fries, pizza, hot dog, whatever. My grandson now plays for the Saints B pee wee team so I got to experience that each Saturday morning this year. I take him to practice once a week. It has been so nice and I feel blessed that I have a chance to teach what I have learned and give back something that was very good to me growing up here.
The greatest feeling have been seeing kids I helped get to college graduate and make a life for them and their family. That is the type of reward that carries on long after I am buried...what you did to help somebody.
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