MPSSAA football playoff format to be finalized on Friday

[eaglesinsider]

I just got some frustrating news that the MPSSAA has decided officially not to put in place a system that gets teams that didn't make the playoffs a 10th game. I don't know the details yet. If this is true, I will take back every single decent thing I had to say about the MPSSAA and go back to flogging them relentlessly for screwing it all up. This would be a financial disaster of a decision and a complete injustice to the student-athlete.

That's awful. It'd be super easy to just add a 10th game and be done as well. Take the biggest 3A school that didn't make the playoffs and bump them to 4A, do the same with 1A to 2A.

That gives you 14 4A, 12 3A, 14 2A, 12 1A non-playoff schools. Match them up geographically and there you go.

As an aside, Capitol Christian is apparently defunct at least as a football program as Coach Wade has started his own school called the Royalty Institute. Given their lack of communication in the past I doubt he's informed KIPP DC (8/24), Clear Spring (9/6) or Maryland School for the Deaf (11/2) that they now need to find new games.

 

[beall02]

I just got some frustrating news that the MPSSAA has decided officially not to put in place a system that gets teams that didn't make the playoffs a 10th game. I don't know the details yet. If this is true, I will take back every single decent thing I had to say about the MPSSAA and go back to flogging them relentlessly for screwing it all up. This would be a financial disaster of a decision and a complete injustice to the student-athlete.

Everyone kept saying trust the MPSSAA, it isn't your same old MPSSAA of year's past! We all should of knew better than to do that. My question is what proposal did the football committee vote on? If it was the one without the open bracket/ guarantee of a 10th game for EVERYONE then they should be ashamed of themselves. I am assuming it has to be in order for the change to be confirmed. If the proposal the committee voted on was to include the open bracket then the MPSSAA needs to do another vote or dismiss the proposal that was voted on. What a crock this has turned out to be. It sort of reminds me of how Baltimore City is run.

 

[beall02]

I don't understand why it is so hard to adjust the season. Whether it be start a week earlier or end a week later. It can't be that difficult. And I'm sure whatever issues it may cause could be figured out.

 

[beall02]

Didn’t Allegany and FH both only get 9 games in last year and it turned out fine for them

Nobody is arguing that playing a 9-game schedule would hurt them as far as getting in the playoffs. Under the old system it seemed to benefit teams more than it penalized them when they either scheduled or ended up playing only 9 games for one reason or another. With the new system they would change the divider to 9 instead of 10. So, that isn't the real issue here.

One of biggest issues would be having tons of student athletes losing 10%+ of their high school career. And since most high school football players never play football again it is a big deal to them. Not to mention the financial aspects of the whole ordeal. I get that they are splitting the money from the first week of playoff games among the schools but I'm not so sure that is going to equal what those schools would of got from a 10th game. Especially now that they aren't going to have the additional open bracket games to add to that pool of money. I think people are really underestimating the financial aspect of this decision the MPSSAA has made. Worst case scenario would be a lot of rematches in the first week of the playoffs and/or bad weather and now you have bad attendance.

 

[Lagmeister]

Everyone kept saying trust the MPSSAA, it isn't your same old MPSSAA of year's past! We all should of knew better than to do that. My question is what proposal did the football committee vote on? If it was the one without the open bracket/ guarantee of a 10th game for EVERYONE then they should be ashamed of themselves. I am assuming it has to be in order for the change to be confirmed. If the proposal the committee voted on was to include the open bracket then the MPSSAA needs to do another vote or dismiss the proposal that was voted on. What a crock this has turned out to be. It sort of reminds me of how Baltimore City is run.

The slippery slope turned out to be a water slide into of, by and for the playoffs. The same mentality that denigrates weaker teams for not playing bigger teams with greater depth, finds no problem kicking those weaker teams to the curb by eliminating their games. It's all part of the same mentality. We have long since shredded the concept of what high school sports was meant to be.

 

[TDHelmick]

The slippery slope turned out to be a water slide into of, by and for the playoffs. The same mentality that denigrates weaker teams for not playing bigger teams with greater depth, finds no problem kicking those weaker teams to the curb by eliminating their games. It's all part of the same mentality. We have long since shredded the concept of what high school sports was meant to be.

Yep. You said it. I am so frustrated, yet not surprised. This is the MPSSAA. Had a great thing going and just screwed it all up. Waiting to hear the backlash and the results.

 

[NG Huskies Fan]

My guess is COMAR requirement mentioned earlier was a problem? Maybe the local delegation to Annapolis should put in a bill to change it next year, although I'm sure they have more pressing issues to deal with than football, it does not do the schools that miss the playoffs any favors. Northern only has 3 home games this year, so that is not good for them, even if they split the first round playoff gate across the board.
It's been a while since I've followed PA High School football, but I know in the past the teams that didn't make the district playoffs could schedule a 10th game. I know Northern had scheduled Meyersdale one year for Md week 9 which would've been PA's opening playoff week, but had to cancel the game when Meyersdale made the PA playoffs.

I think this format could be successful, it is better than what we had, maybe they should look at adding a class or 2 and making football like everything else where everyone is in? Just a thought.

 

[TDHelmick]

I got some explanation today. First, this is not all set in stone. The MPSSAA is considering the notion that teams not making the playoffs can still schedule a 10th game on their own. Probably against other teams that didn't make the playoffs. The reasoning was that the MPSSAA got feedback stating most coaches just wanted to end the season if they didn't make the playoffs and that the attendance numbers would be dismal for those games anyway. The "open bracket" thing was not popular, which was basically a bracket tournament for teams that didn't make the playoffs...like an NIT so to speak. I can see that, but I think it is important to allow teams to get at least their 10th game. The problem with letting teams schedule a 10th game on their own is that it will lead to a cluster of last minute crap.

Let me be the MPSSAA say-so guy please. Or lets make a 10th game committee like the NCAA does to put match ups together. I can pair up every team that didn't make the playoffs for one game so everyone gets 10 games. The winless teams will play other winless teams without having to travel very far, one loss teams vs. one loss teams, etc.

It's not difficult. I would have had Hancock playing Smithsburg last year for week 10. Northern vs. FSK, Snow Hill vs. Patterson Mill, etc.

 

[bleedred]

There is an easy answer. Allow the schools to start the season a week early. Then it will be up to the individual school systems to decide if they want their kids to play a tenth game. I don't buy the money argument about paying coaches for an extra week of work. In the grand scheme of cost for schools, it's pennies.

 

[nomad974]

Maryland state policy (COMAR regulation, so state law) requires a 21 day preseason for all sports before the first contest. The lone exception is Golf. For Maryland to start a week earlier, its preseason would also have to start a week earlier.

So a lot of Annapolis politics and red tape would be involved in order for the start date to be moved.

 

[bleedred]

Sorry Nomad, I assumed that you would understand that the start date for practice would also be moved up a week as well. The comar regulation would still be enforced, only the start date would be changed. Remember, it only took one season to change the August 15th. date which had stood for decades.

The real problem is the school systems that don't want to pay their staff for the extra week. In those cases, these they can direct their staff to opt to the 9 game schedule for their kids.

The advantages of starting at the same time as WV, PA, and the MD Privates would be huge.

 

[alco65]

Sorry Nomad, I assumed that you would understand that the start date for practice would also be moved up a week as well. The comar regulation would still be enforced, only the start date would be changed. Remember, it only took one season to change the August 15th. date which had stood for decades.

The real problem is the school systems that don't want to pay their staff for the extra week. In those cases, these they can direct their staff to opt to the 9 game schedule for their kids.

The advantages of starting at the same time as WV, PA, and the MD Privates would be huge.

Just a question. If certain school systems don't want to pay the staff an extra week do they not have an off season conditioning program?Pretty sure football coaches don't make enough to make a living and sure do put in more time unpaid then paid. I doubt any football coach out there is doing it for the money

 

[nomad974]

The State legislators will not move the start date for schools back, just to accommodate HS football.

However, based on recent developments in the House of Delegates & State Senate the date may be moved back. But the reasoning will have nothing to do with HS athletics.

 

[eaglesinsider]

According to an article in the Baltimore Sun, the 4 votes against the plan came from Cecil, Charles and Saint Mary's (2)

 

[nomad974]

According to an article in the Baltimore Sun, the 4 votes against the plan came from Cecil, Charles and Saint Mary's (2)

Interesting. I can understand Cecil voting against. Their potential travel would increase as they primarily play Eastern shore schools in the 1A/2A playoffs.

Not sure what Charles & St Mary's reasoning is. They are essentially the SMAC conference, which spans all 4 classifications.

 

[eaglesinsider]

Interesting. I can understand Cecil voting against. Their potential travel would increase as they primarily play Eastern shore schools in the 1A/2A playoffs.

Not sure what Charles & St Mary's reasoning is. They are essentially the SMAC conference, which spans all 4 classifications.

I think the Cecil and SMAC schools were primarily against it happening this year rather than being against the plan itself. Both leagues (plus the Bayside) originally published 10-game schedules for 2019. I have the adjusted 9-game Bayside schedules but both the UCBAC and SMAC still have 10-game schedules with the season ending on 11/8.

I assume that Baltimore City is in the same boat as well seeing as we're in mid May and all I have for all 18 Baltimore City schools is 3 games for Patterson. They haven't even shown up on other team's OOC dates, which is unusual as there's usually some crossover games between Baltimore City and County but the Baltimore County schedules are 100% done.

 

[beall02]

I think the Cecil and SMAC schools were primarily against it happening this year rather than being against the plan itself. Both leagues (plus the Bayside) originally published 10-game schedules for 2019. I have the adjusted 9-game Bayside schedules but both the UCBAC and SMAC still have 10-game schedules with the season ending on 11/8.

I assume that Baltimore City is in the same boat as well seeing as we're in mid May and all I have for all 18 Baltimore City schools is 3 games for Patterson. They haven't even shown up on other team's OOC dates, which is unusual as there's usually some crossover games between Baltimore City and County but the Baltimore County schedules are 100% done.

We are going to look back at this as the best thing to happen to MD High School Football or the worst thing to happen to MD High School Football. Only time will tell.

My question remains did everyone know they were voting on a proposal that included taking away a game from the teams that don't make the playoffs?

 

[TDHelmick]

One aspect is for certain...the old system sucked. It was the dumbest sports creation in the history of high school athletics. Conferences where teams don't play each other.

 

[beall02]

One aspect is for certain...the old system sucked. It was the dumbest sports creation in the history of high school athletics. Conferences where teams don't play each other.

In all fairness, I blame that on the conferences and the MPSSAA. If a conference doesn't force its members to play one another in order to be a member of the conference then why blame a school for it. If the MPSSAA doesn't force member schools to play a certain amount of its games against other teams from its region in order to qualify for postseason play then shame on the MPSSAA.

 

[eaglesinsider]

What I still think the biggest flaw of the points system in Maryland is that it rewards you for scheduling bad teams, especially bad bigger teams. High Point should not automatically be worth 4 more points than FH if FH would beat them by 100.

Florida has scrapped district play and gone to a points system in most of their classifications but they solely reward points based on record. The crucial difference is that they also award points for losing to good teams. A loss to a Category 1 team (wins 80% of their games or more) gives you 35 points, the same number of points as a win over a Category 4 team (wins less than 40% of their games). They also grant 3 bonus points to any team who plays a team that made the playoffs at least once in the previous two year cycle and another 3 bonus points for playing a team that finished ranked in the Top 25 in the state. What this means is that in this system scheduling and losing to Fort Hill would give you 41 points whereas scheduling and beating Hancock would only give you 35 points.

 

[TDHelmick]

Yea, I also never liked the fact that teams got zero points for losing. As I have said before, a team can go on the road to DeMatha and lose by 1 point in 3 overtimes but get zero points for it in the current point system used. But they can get 7 points for beating Silver Oak at home by 50. But now that the playoffs have expanded, that point concept has been diminished.

Also, yes...if the MPSSAA was going to force a Regional playoff system then they should have mandated that teams in the region play each other. Otherwise scrap the regions. It was so stupid. But as I also have said...now region teams are forced to play each other. It will just be in the post season. And if you don't want to play a team in the post season then just step out.

 

[beall02]

Yea, I also never liked the fact that teams got zero points for losing. As I have said before, a team can go on the road to DeMatha and lose by 1 point in 3 overtimes but get zero points for it in the current point system used. But they can get 7 points for beating Silver Oak at home by 50. But now that the playoffs have expanded, that point concept has been diminished.

Also, yes...if the MPSSAA was going to force a Regional playoff system then they should have mandated that teams in the region play each other. Otherwise scrap the regions. It was so stupid. But as I also have said...now region teams are forced to play each other. It will just be in the post season. And if you don't want to play a team in the post season then just step out.

Under the new system it wouldnt surprise me to see teams step out of the region to fill regular season games. Especially teams east of Hagerstown who have so many teams close to them.

 

[beall02]

What I still think the biggest flaw of the points system in Maryland is that it rewards you for scheduling bad teams, especially bad bigger teams. High Point should not automatically be worth 4 more points than FH if FH would beat them by 100.

Florida has scrapped district play and gone to a points system in most of their classifications but they solely reward points based on record. The crucial difference is that they also award points for losing to good teams. A loss to a Category 1 team (wins 80% of their games or more) gives you 35 points, the same number of points as a win over a Category 4 team (wins less than 40% of their games). They also grant 3 bonus points to any team who plays a team that made the playoffs at least once in the previous two year cycle and another 3 bonus points for playing a team that finished ranked in the Top 25 in the state. What this means is that in this system scheduling and losing to Fort Hill would give you 41 points whereas scheduling and beating Hancock would only give you 35 points.

Yeah I agree. They need to come up with a way of rewarding teams for playing quality opponents. But one could argue an 8-1 Fort Hill team is better than a 8-1 Hancock team, in most years, if that situation were to occur. Not knocking on Hancock. How would one determine a quality opponent?

 

[LinemenWinGames]

Yea, I also never liked the fact that teams got zero points for losing. As I have said before, a team can go on the road to DeMatha and lose by 1 point in 3 overtimes but get zero points for it in the current point system used. But they can get 7 points for beating Silver Oak at home by 50. But now that the playoffs have expanded, that point concept has been diminished.

Also, yes...if the MPSSAA was going to force a Regional playoff system then they should have mandated that teams in the region play each other. Otherwise scrap the regions. It was so stupid. But as I also have said...
now region teams are forced to play each other. It will just be in the post season. And if you don't want to play a team in the post season then just step out.

I agree with your statement in full expect for, “now region teams are forced to play each other. It will just be in the post season. And if you don't want to play a team in the post season then just step out.[/QUOTE].”

Schools under this expanded playoff system still do not have to play other teams in their region during the regular season. Nothing has changed in terms of playing teams in one’s own region. Since the region tournament was set up schools have always had to play other regional schools in the playoffs. The only good thing about this new system is the reseeding hat still occurs after two weeks into the playoffs but with more teams still being at play in the expanded system and the interesting matchups it could create and the inclusion of those bubble teams that probably deserve to be in the mix.

The point system is an issue an will always be an issue and teams will still cherry pick opponents. For example, why is Fort Hill not playing someone like Westminster (I heard they were on the schedule months ago but apparently not) but playing Green Street Academy (because paying GSA to come up here is an easy victory worth 5 win points and if they win as many games as they did last year against terrible competition, 12-13 points totals). I can’t knock an administration for doing this because being in the top 2 total point avg for your classification is important. Like you said without points being awarded for playing good competition MPSSAA schools still have a reason to schedule down.

 

[TDHelmick]

I agree with your statement in full expect for, “now region teams are forced to play each other. It will just be in the post season. And if you don't want to play a team in the post season then just step out.

.”

Schools under this expanded playoff system still do not have to play other teams in their region during the regular season. Nothing has changed in terms of playing teams in one’s own region. Since the region tournament was set up schools have always had to play other regional schools in the playoffs. The only good thing about this new system is the reseeding hat still occurs after two weeks into the playoffs but with more teams still being at play in the expanded system and the interesting matchups it could create and the inclusion of those bubble teams that probably deserve to be in the mix.

The point system is an issue an will always be an issue and teams will still cherry pick opponents. For example, why is Fort Hill not playing someone like Westminster (I heard they were on the schedule months ago but apparently not) but playing Green Street Academy (because paying GSA to come up here is an easy victory worth 5 win points and if they win as many games as they did last year against terrible competition, 12-13 points totals). I can’t knock an administration for doing this because being in the top 2 total point avg for your classification is important. Like you said without points being awarded for playing good competition MPSSAA schools still have a reason to schedule down.[/QUOTE]


I would give it another year or two before we see if this new playoff format opens up scheduling doors for better comp. When the schedules were put together for 2019 all through the winter, there was no guarantee the new system was going to be put in place so teams still were balking on better comp. It's why FH still needs a game. But for all I know, there is certain to be teams that just don't want to risk getting their butt beat.

 

[eaglesinsider]

Yeah I agree. They need to come up with a way of rewarding teams for playing quality opponents. But one could argue an 8-1 Fort Hill team is better than a 8-1 Hancock team, in most years, if that situation were to occur. Not knocking on Hancock. How would one determine a quality opponent?

Florida tweaked the formula again this year to include opponent's opponents win percentage, which isn't perfect but should help a little bit as in that scenario an 8-1 Hancock's 8 wins are probably coming against incredibly bad teams. Like you said, no knock on Hancock, I love the fact that they're still playing football with about 100 kids in the HS when big 3A/4A schools like Centennial and Bladensburg have had to cancel seasons due to lack of turnout.

 

[eaglesinsider]

The point system is an issue an will always be an issue and teams will still cherry pick opponents. For example, why is Fort Hill not playing someone like Westminster (I heard they were on the schedule months ago but apparently not) but playing Green Street Academy (because paying GSA to come up here is an easy victory worth 5 win points and if they win as many games as they did last year against terrible competition, 12-13 points totals).

Howard County allowing out of county games for the first time in forever further diminishes opportunities for Fort Hill and the other Western MD games.

Why would Westminster go all the way to Cumberland when they can play 2A finalist Glenelg, which ended up being their Week 4 game this year. Howard is playing at South Hagerstown and Atholton at North Hagerstown. Glenelg plays Westminster, Urbana and Smyrna (DE).

Also, Green Street Academy is pretty firmly in the decent opponent camp, going 8-1 as a second year varsity program with wins over Frederick, Maryland School for the Deaf, Berkeley Springs (WV) and Douglass (Baltimore) and their lone loss coming to Edmondson. They're athletic and Coach Alt was the head coach at Juniata College for 5 seasons so they're much better coached than you'd expect from a new Baltimore City program. They open this season at home against Laguna Beach from California and also play at MIAA A McDonogh so they're lining up against some pretty good teams.

 

[nomad974]

I've spoken to a handful of ADs & Coaches. Some for elite programs in the state, some from legit bottom feeders. They were all in favor of the expanded playoffs, even if they would lose one regular season game. Their reasoning was, that one lost game is a game none of them wanted to play in the 1st place but were forced by their Conference\County. For example, Quince Orchard vs Bethesda Chevy Chase or Northwest vs Walter Johnson will not be played now.

Now admittedly, my focus is Montgomery County. But from what i've seen from Frederick, PG, Anne Arundel, Baltimore County, etc. They have all created similar schedules where the lower tier schools do not have to play the top schools. Which for the parties involved, they seem happy with.

The teams that will not make the playoffs in the new system should be around the 0-9 to 2-7 range. In my experience, most of those types of teams are running on fumes by week 9 and are already looking forward to Winter sports season starting.

 

[beall02]

I've spoken to a handful of ADs & Coaches. Some for elite programs in the state, some from legit bottom feeders. They were all in favor of the expanded playoffs, even if they would lose one regular season game. Their reasoning was, that one lost game is a game none of them wanted to play in the 1st place but were forced by their Conference\County. For example, Quince Orchard vs Bethesda Chevy Chase or Northwest vs Walter Johnson will not be played now.

Now admittedly, my focus is Montgomery County. But from what i've seen from Frederick, PG, Anne Arundel, Baltimore County, etc. They have all created similar schedules where the lower tier schools do not have to play the top schools. Which for the parties involved, they seem happy with.

The teams that will not make the playoffs in the new system should be around the 0-9 to 2-7 range. In my experience, most of those types of teams are running on fumes by week 9 and are already looking forward to Winter sports season starting.

I'm sure if you asked those coaches that go 0-5 or 1-4 with a win over a winless team in their first 5 games if they want to finish the season they would probably say heck no. I'd rather pack it up now and get paid for a full season. It isn't about the coaches. It's about the student athletes.

 

[nomad974]

I'm sure if you asked those coaches that go 0-5 or 1-4 with a win over a winless team in their first 5 games if they want to finish the season they would probably say heck no. I'd rather pack it up now and get paid for a full season. It isn't about the coaches. It's about the student athletes.

Yes, you are correct. I did speak with coaches & ADs from some winless programs and that was basically their response.

In reference to the players, I only spoke to a few who I know personally (family\neighborhood kids). They don't like getting beat 63-0 and seem OK with not having to play that one game. However, I am aware it is probably a case by case basis.

 

[camper21502]

I just hate having a participation trophy championship...

 

[theprocessworks]

It’s the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Very few people that I know would want this

 

[TDHelmick]

It’s the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Very few people that I know would want this

Not as dumb as what we had.

 

[Lagmeister]

I just hate having a participation trophy championship...

Unless the have-nots only play the have-nots, they are going to get the shit kicked out of them anyhow. I don't think any changes were made to better their lot; rather, this scheduling adds a tincture of risk and a framework of fairness.

 

[theprocessworks]

Not as dumb as what we had.

What we had was horrible since 1974, I agree. I also believe most kids will just want the season to be over if they don’t make the state playoffs. Playing in a losers playoff will delay the kids who play winter sports. Also a kid suffering a career ending injury while playing in a losers bracket game. What is the purpose?