Dunbar on the road thanks to FH

[TDHelmick]

Dunbar will travel to undefeated Douglass this Saturday as the #3 seed. Had FH not forfeited 5 wins Dunbar would have played Douglass at home.

When was the last time the #7 and # 8 seed were in a title game?

 

[ravemwp]

Dunbar will travel to undefeated Douglass this Saturday as the #3 seed. Had FH not forfeited 5 wins Dunbar would have played Douglass at home.

When was the last time the #7 and # 8 seed were in a title game?

It still angers me that the depth and effect of one parents irresponsibility, and the Allegany County BOE refusal to do a proper check on something that most people in 2 states and 3 counties already knew. The MPSSAA total disregard for all the teams, schools, student bodies, bands, cheerleaders, and parents that has been affected by their decision. If FH or the ACPS are not at fault, then why are so many paying the price for ONE.

 

[4inarowtopthat]

It still angers me that the depth and effect of one parents irresponsibility, and the Allegany County BOE refusal to do a proper check on something that most people in 2 states and 3 counties already knew. The MPSSAA total disregard for all the teams, schools, student bodies, bands, cheerleaders, and parents that has been affected by their decision. If FH or the ACPS are not at fault, then why are so many paying the price for ONE.

I agree with you but you also bring up a point that kind of argues against your own position. If most people in 2 states and 3 counties knew then how did not one person associated with Fort Hill, coaches, teachers, students...stop to think that maybe, just maybe something wasn't right and they should step forward and report it to the powers that be. I get that it's the BOE who is ultimately responsible but they didn't lie on the paperwork and I doubt they have investigative teams hunting down would be liars who send their kids to schools they don't belong in. Then it goes to the next level and I just have a hard time believing that ignorance is an acceptable excuse, even if it's not your job to question or inquire. Somebody knew, maybe a lot of somebodies, and they ignored it. The rule is the rule, and unless somebody makes a strong case for changing it you have to comply or pay the penalty.

 

[ravemwp]

I agree with you but you also bring up a point that kind of argues against your own position. If most people in 2 states and 3 counties knew then how did not one person associated with Fort Hill, coaches, teachers, students...stop to think that maybe, just maybe something wasn't right and they should step forward and report it to the powers that be. I get that it's the BOE who is ultimately responsible but they didn't lie on the paperwork and I doubt they have investigative teams hunting down would be liars who send their kids to schools they don't belong in. Then it goes to the next level and I just have a hard time believing that ignorance is an acceptable excuse, even if it's not your job to question or inquire. Somebody knew, maybe a lot of somebodies, and they ignored it. The rule is the rule, and unless somebody makes a strong case for changing it you have to comply or pay the penalty.

Unfortunately for FH it doesn't really matter what the school knew. The ACPS BOE determines eligibility. When you get right down to it, if you are eligible to attend the school, you are eligible to play. The coaching staffs only recourse may have been to cut him from the team, (may have caused a problem if he was the only player cut), but they can't not let him try out. Again eligibility is determined by BOE. The administration can't turn down his enrollment. Got to remember most think he was ineligible to play football, he was really ineligible to attend FH. My spidey sense tell me that Alkire didn't play him in the first game, because he wanted reassurance from BOE that everything was in correct order. My senses also tell me that FH coaching staff was never comfortable with the situation and did report it to the powers to be. You are correct about rules being rules. My anger comes from all the people paying the price for something they had no control over, including Dunbar having to play on the road, also Alco having the possible path to the semis that Northern had. The forfiets created seeding problems for many teams throughout the state that had no involvement in the situation. So with rules being rules, they are usually created to keep things fair. I'm just not sure that everyone got a fair shake in this deal. Unfortunate for many.

 

[TDHelmick]

There is so much more to this story. I will cover it once the season ends from all angles and interviews. It's embarrassing to say the least and opened up a huge can of worms that should lead every coach to shriek.

 

[westernMD]

According to an interview on WCBC, the BOE is actually considering suing the parents of the ineligible player to recoup the costs of chartering the buses for FH playoff road games. I predict they will not follow through because FH did not have to take their band on the road, that was a choice, not a necessity. So, to ask the parents to pay for that is kind of ridiculous. If they want to recoup the cost of 2 months of educating a child whose parents are not Maryland taxpayers, that's a different story. But charter buses? Might be wise just to drop the whole thing and move on.

 

[hbpass2]

According to an interview on WCBC, the BOE is actually considering suing the parents of the ineligible player to recoup the costs of chartering the buses for FH playoff road games. I predict they will not follow through because FH did not have to take their band on the road, that was a choice, not a necessity. So, to ask the parents to pay for that is kind of ridiculous. If they want to recoup the cost of 2 months of educating a child whose parents are not Maryland taxpayers, that's a different story. But charter buses? Might be wise just to drop the whole thing and move on.

could the school itself sue for lost revenue? They lost on 4 home games. That’s 4 games worth of concession stands, merchandise, 50/50, and gate money. I know the concession stand folks had placed a huge order the week of homecoming anticipating having home games through the playoffs

 

[ravemwp]

According to an interview on WCBC, the BOE is actually considering suing the parents of the ineligible player to recoup the costs of chartering the buses for FH playoff road games. I predict they will not follow through because FH did not have to take their band on the road, that was a choice, not a necessity. So, to ask the parents to pay for that is kind of ridiculous. If they want to recoup the cost of 2 months of educating a child whose parents are not Maryland taxpayers, that's a different story. But charter buses? Might be wise just to drop the whole thing and move on.

I heard something along those lines as well. My understanding is that the BOE was considering suing to recoup cost of BOE lost monies, including educating, and paper work process. No mention of reimbursing FH for any extra cost. I wouldn't mind hearing the real truth.

 

[OneRing]

Unfortunately for FH it doesn't really matter what the school knew. The ACPS BOE determines eligibility. When you get right down to it, if you are eligible to attend the school, you are eligible to play. The coaching staffs only recourse may have been to cut him from the team, (may have caused a problem if he was the only player cut), but they can't not let him try out. Again eligibility is determined by BOE. The administration can't turn down his enrollment. Got to remember most think he was ineligible to play football, he was really ineligible to attend FH. My spidey sense tell me that Alkire didn't play him in the first game, because he wanted reassurance from BOE that everything was in correct order. My senses also tell me that FH coaching staff was never comfortable with the situation and did report it to the powers to be. You are correct about rules being rules. My anger comes from all the people paying the price for something they had no control over, including Dunbar having to play on the road, also Alco having the possible path to the semis that Northern had. The forfiets created seeding problems for many teams throughout the state that had no involvement in the situation. So with rules being rules, they are usually created to keep things fair. I'm just not sure that everyone got a fair shake in this deal. Unfortunate for many.

Wait... So if a hypothetical team played a 24-year old that the BoE approved, even though the coaching staff knew something was up, the team shouldn't be punished in any way at all?

Look, I know you're trying to keep FH clean in all of this, but your suggesting we change the decades old policy of how we've dealt with teams that use intelligible players.

 

[ravemwp]

could the school itself sue for lost revenue? They lost on 4 home games. That’s 4 games worth of concession stands, merchandise, 50/50, and gate money. I know the concession stand folks had placed a huge order the week of homecoming anticipating having home games through the playoffs

Lots of people lost out on this deal. FH will need to travel in excess of 1200 miles over a 4 week period just to be able to appear in the state title game. (No guarantee) Parents, Grandparents, Student body, Band, Cheerleaders, etc. paying lots of time and money to experience their children's achievements. Lost revenue all around. Someone needs to be culpable!!

 

[ravemwp]

Wait... So if a hypothetical team played a 24-year old that the BoE approved, even though the coaching staff knew something was up, the team shouldn't be punished in any way at all?

Look, I know you're trying to keep FH clean in all of this, but your suggesting we change the decades old policy of how we've dealt with teams that use intelligible players.

So in your hypothetical scenario, if the BOE deems a 50 year old Eligible to attend FH then FH cannot deny enrollment. Now on the other hand there is a rule in place that states an age limit on playing high school athletics. I said it before, I don't care what school it is. If the BOE deems a student eligible, he is eligible. The coach and the principal and student body could follow this kid home everyday with a video, and give it to the BOE it doesn't matter until the BOE acts on it. The school and coaching staff has no say in these matters. Hence anonymous tip. I got a pretty good idea who ANONYMOUS is. Oh and BTW I'm pretty sure the age verification is the responsibility of the BOE as well. Hypothetical's can sometimes bring clarity. Not so much in this case. Hypothetically FH never used an ineligible player. Remember the kid only saw the field with documentation from the powers that be that said Eligible, and never saw the field when the documentation from the powers to be said Ineligible. How about this Hypothetical, a player is failing math all semester, that player is still eligible until that grade posts. Once the failing grade posts, player becomes ineligible. Games he played are not forfeited although he was failing the whole season. We can do this all day. I get that rules are rules, but maybe this gives cause to look at some of the antiquated ways things are handled in the world we live in today.

 

[4inarowtopthat]

Unfortunately for FH it doesn't really matter what the school knew. The ACPS BOE determines eligibility. When you get right down to it, if you are eligible to attend the school, you are eligible to play. The coaching staffs only recourse may have been to cut him from the team, (may have caused a problem if he was the only player cut), but they can't not let him try out. Again eligibility is determined by BOE. The administration can't turn down his enrollment. Got to remember most think he was ineligible to play football, he was really ineligible to attend FH. My spidey sense tell me that Alkire didn't play him in the first game, because he wanted reassurance from BOE that everything was in correct order. My senses also tell me that FH coaching staff was never comfortable with the situation and did report it to the powers to be. You are correct about rules being rules. My anger comes from all the people paying the price for something they had no control over, including Dunbar having to play on the road, also Alco having the possible path to the semis that Northern had. The forfiets created seeding problems for many teams throughout the state that had no involvement in the situation. So with rules being rules, they are usually created to keep things fair. I'm just not sure that everyone got a fair shake in this deal. Unfortunate for many.

Agree with you and can't wait until the whole story is revealed.

 

[4inarowtopthat]

Wait... So if a hypothetical team played a 24-year old that the BoE approved, even though the coaching staff knew something was up, the team shouldn't be punished in any way at all?

Look, I know you're trying to keep FH clean in all of this, but your suggesting we change the decades old policy of how we've dealt with teams that use intelligible players.

I for one am not disagreeing with you at all. Nobody should be exempt from repercussions if they knew about it and did nothing. Now if they reported it and it went unchecked then that's different. This whole thing about the BOE approving it but if they are wrong FH pays the penalty is a rule that seems to be unfair to the school, whether it's FH or anybody else.

 

[TDHelmick]

So if a football player lives in Cresaptown and goes to FH without an "out of district" permit and the BOE just now finds out - the FH season is over. All games forfeited.

Or vice versa, if a player lives in Bel Air but plays for Alco without that permit, their season is over. If it is now discovered that happened in softball last year does Alco now go back and forfeit that state title? Because we are talking about the stupidity of retroactive punishment.

If a player has disgruntled parents, for whatever reason...maybe their child didn't get to play enough or got yelled at, etc. And those parents up and move to WV during the season without notifying anyone while lying about it. Then those parents turn themselves in for living out of district, are those games forfeited?

There are a ton of scenarios opened from this can of worms that make zero sense under current rules. To me personally, if a player is currently eligible, but then is found ineligible (like with grades), then that child can no longer participate in school or activities moving forward. That does NOT mean the games they already participated in as an eligible player at the time are forfeited. These are really stupid rules. Especially when you consider it was the BOE who triple verified the student was eligible in the first place.

 

[ravemwp]

There is so much more to this story. I will cover it once the season ends from all angles and interviews. It's embarrassing to say the least and opened up a huge can of worms that should lead every coach to shriek.

Well season is over. Hope that they can find a solution to this continuing problem. Would like to know the whole truthful story, not to place blame, but to change the process to insure no repeats. Overlooked is not just the impact on local teams, but the degrees of separation it caused other teams, and teams of teams in MD, West VA. Virginia and Penn. that this impacted by their season record, and seeding being changed, and or displaced during the playoffs. Question for MPSSAA. Would't it have made more sense to vacate those wins as oppose to forfeit them. There is a difference. Forfeits change every teams record, and point, bonus points for every team, no matter how many degrees of separation. Vacated wins only changes FH record.

 

[ultrawalt]

The problem of transfers and forfeits is a issue of resources. The MPSSAA itself doesn't and can not verify attendance for every student participating in athletics throughout the state. They simply state that a student must be "authorized to attend under the regulations of the local school system". The trap for coaches, assuming that they aren't purposefully trying to circumvent rules and laws (a la Hayfield in Virginia) is that each school has a registrar and students register with the documents requested and are enrolled. It's impossible for a high school to get a investigator to track kids to determine true address and at the point of enrollment and approval from the registrar the student is 'authorized to attend' and has the right to participate in athletics. Considering the amount of constraints on coaches of any sport, if a kid shows up and is enrolled a coach can't unilaterally stop them from participating because that is not their role/authority and would earn you a stern talking to or worse if a coach tried it. So coaches and to an extent the registrar have to trust the student and their family to be honest about their documentation. With all of this, all it takes from there is one person, coach or parent to complain about one student possibly being out of area, through no fault of the school or coach and you have investigators following that student and finding that they may have falsely enrolled. Never mind the fact that investigators tend to focus disproportionally on athletic transfers, now the coach and team are penalized by the county board of education (again the MPSSAA places that responsibility with the school systems) for playing a student that for all intents and purposes was authorized to attend by that same school system. The school system having the latitude from the MPSSAA could remove the student from the school and interpret that despite the deception they were authorized to attend and participate at the time they participated and simply remove them from the school but to prevent bad actors from taking advantage feel obligated to punish the teams/coaches for something that may not be (and likely isn't) their fault to discourage worse issues. It is unfortunate and unfair but unless resources (money and manpower) are given for every transfer at every school in the state to be throughly investigated before they can enroll and start classes we're stuck with a unsatisfying status quo. As for vacating instead of forfeiting, with the playoffs having a minimum divisor for seeding games becoming vacated could have worse impacts on the opponents of a vacating team than the loss might have (if, for example they started with the minimum divisor of 8 games and have 2 vacated games instead of forfeit wins they are left with whatever points they might have gotten over 6 games divided by 8).

 

[ravemwp]

I totally agree with your post. I understand the process, and the resources of transfers. That's why Baltimore changed over to the magnet school program years ago. Eliminating loopholes for deception of residence. My concern is, how to fix the problem. You make the same point that I have made in other threads. The same board that deems you eligible, is the same board that deems you ineligible. My contention is that a student athlete is eligible until he is found ineligible. Much like the player who is failing math. Said player is eligible until the failing grade post. Once his eligibility status changes, now the school/team becomes the responsible party. It's my understanding in this particular case, FH questioned the county school board on 3 separate occasions about this particular transfer before allowing him to play. (Even sat him out the first game, waiting for the 3 time go ahead he's eligible) My question remains the same. How do we stop this from happening. Whether it be residence, grades, age, etc. How do we hold a school/team responsible for something they don't control. Punishment after the fact, for something you approved just doesn't work. Unfortunate circumstances doesn't work either. I'm not sure of the fix, but in my opinion, the player in question only was on the field with a piece of paper saying eligible. Never saw the field holding a piece of paper saying ineligible. As far as the vacated vs forfeits. It was my understanding that only FH record changes, from 7-2 to 2-7, but that say Mountain Ridge record stays at 5-4 instead of 6-3. That's how I read it. I may have misunderstood. It did change the 1A west seeding. Thanks for your very informative and insightful post. There just has to be a better way.

 

[TDHelmick]

A student is eligible until they are ineligible. That's the nutshell.

The people who declare a student eligible are the same people that declare them ineligible. RETEOACTIVE PUNISHMENT is the stupidy of poor leadership. Beyond asinine.

 

[ultrawalt]

That’s the worst part. It has happened far too much across all jurisdictions in the state and I certainly understand fairness but in many cases adults do their best to maximize damage to the teams. Just last year in PG County, after a preseason and early season check approved Flowers roster, it conveniently is discovered after a playoff game that the initial check missed something in relation to a players eligibility and ended the school’s entire season right there. In that situation it was pointed out that the athletic office happened to have a connection to the Roosevelt staff that benefited from the exact timing of the “revelation” by getting a bye to the state quarterfinals instead of a likely defeat.

 

[ravemwp]

That’s the worst part. It has happened far too much across all jurisdictions in the state and I certainly understand fairness but in many cases adults do their best to maximize damage to the teams. Just last year in PG County, after a preseason and early season check approved Flowers roster, it conveniently is discovered after a playoff game that the initial check missed something in relation to a players eligibility and ended the school’s entire season right there. In that situation it was pointed out that the athletic office happened to have a connection to the Roosevelt staff that benefited from the exact timing of the “revelation” by getting a bye to the state quarterfinals instead of a likely defeat.

In my theory that is why I believe FH was the anonymous tip. Trying to get out in front of it before it got to late. Much like the Flowers situation from last year. My spidey senses tell me that FH was never comfortable with this particular transfer situation.

 

[PowerRamRight]

In my theory that is why I believe FH was the anonymous tip. Trying to get out in front of it before it got to late. Much like the Flowers situation from last year. My spidey senses tell me that FH was never comfortable with this particular transfer situation.

I agree with your theory. The cover up is always worse than the crime. The lesson from the past. In this case no need for a cover up since the infraction was admitted to.....and we moved on. Certainly interested in Todd's soon to be published "rest of the story.".....hopefully.

 

[4inarowtopthat]

I agree with your theory. The cover up is always worse than the crime. The lesson from the past. In this case no need for a cover up since the infraction was admitted to.....and we moved on. Certainly interested in Todd's soon to be published "rest of the story.".....hopefully.

Isn't that the truth! TH is a wealth of knowledge so I'll be interested also. It's hard not to judge or have opinions but getting the whole story is far better than placing blame without knowing what that story is.
FH has been thru some stuff over the years and they always seem to overcome it. This state title is another testament to the dedication and hared work of all involved.

 

[K7w5]

If FH was the tip, the whole “free 88” deal was a little over the top no?

 

[FHHSAHS]

Over the top, you say? Lol

They even made it the fight song...yeah, FH and their fans are.pretty.over the top. God bless them for it.

 

[Tony54]

If FH was the tip, the whole “free 88” deal was a little over the top no?

We don’t know for sure yet that Fort Hill was the anonymous tip. A good coach will use any extra motivation they can find though..

 

[FHHSAHS]

FH was not the "tip". 100% the truth. If you've been told otherwise, you're getting incorrect info.

 

[TDHelmick]

I have talked with 40 different people directly involved with this issue who claim to know the anonymous tipper. Turns out the anonymous tipper is 40 different people.