Capitol / FH Game
- Thread starter wvuguy43
- Start date
Todd Helmick explained on the WCBC Radio Show Thursday that Capital Christian is in the best shape they've been roster wise. Helmick says they are solid, with I thought he said 30 some players.
Sounds like another attempt to denigrate Fort Hill's schedule. Keyser seems to be the origin of much of this talk.
Sounds like another attempt to denigrate Fort Hill's schedule. Keyser seems to be the origin of much of this talk.
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Capitol Christian is good to go. They have been the whole time. Not sure where that rumor got started. Yes, they have more players than they have in the past and more coaches. They already have played 5 games (1-4). The only win was a 44-9 victory over Hancock. Here is a link to their roster:
http://forthillfootball.net/schedules/rosters/CCA_roster_2016.pdf
I don't see them providing much competition versus either Alco or FH. But they will be better than last season.
Also, Alco was originally scheduled to play at Silver Oak this Friday night. That game is now on Saturday afternoon at the same field FH just played them on in Keymar, directly at the school. I thought that field was better than the community field both teams played at two years ago. But this one has no lights, hence the day games. Also, Allegany's home game with Capitol Christian in a few weeks has been bumped to Thursday.
I won't get into another schedule debate. Just suffice to say that both coaches at Alco and FH continue to play Silver Oak and Capitol Christian because there are no other 1A or 2A schools open to playing. So this is what we get. For those that don't like it, the only way the complaint gets addressed is by taking it up with Coach Appel and Coach Hansel. It should also be noted that Keyser is really concerned about making the playoffs and have stated that their scheduling options are being re-evaluated...whatever that means. Let's just say Keyser is looking out for Keyser and they are concerned about the playoffs just like Alco and FH. I personally don't see how Keyser could not continue to play FH while keeping someone like Bridgeport. That would make no sense travel wise, competition wise or money wise. Hoping to see Keyser on the FH schedule for a long time to come. But I would never guarantee it.
http://forthillfootball.net/schedules/rosters/CCA_roster_2016.pdf
I don't see them providing much competition versus either Alco or FH. But they will be better than last season.
Also, Alco was originally scheduled to play at Silver Oak this Friday night. That game is now on Saturday afternoon at the same field FH just played them on in Keymar, directly at the school. I thought that field was better than the community field both teams played at two years ago. But this one has no lights, hence the day games. Also, Allegany's home game with Capitol Christian in a few weeks has been bumped to Thursday.
I won't get into another schedule debate. Just suffice to say that both coaches at Alco and FH continue to play Silver Oak and Capitol Christian because there are no other 1A or 2A schools open to playing. So this is what we get. For those that don't like it, the only way the complaint gets addressed is by taking it up with Coach Appel and Coach Hansel. It should also be noted that Keyser is really concerned about making the playoffs and have stated that their scheduling options are being re-evaluated...whatever that means. Let's just say Keyser is looking out for Keyser and they are concerned about the playoffs just like Alco and FH. I personally don't see how Keyser could not continue to play FH while keeping someone like Bridgeport. That would make no sense travel wise, competition wise or money wise. Hoping to see Keyser on the FH schedule for a long time to come. But I would never guarantee it.
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Keyser gets to the playoffs almost every year, this year they just happen to be down - so its not like a "tough schedule" is the reason they may not have luck in the playoffs.
I agree with you about the Bridgeport thing, it makes no sense to drop FH and keep Bridgeport. Because unless they are strong enough to beat both or either of those teams in the same year, they aren't going win a title regardless.
I agree with you about the Bridgeport thing, it makes no sense to drop FH and keep Bridgeport. Because unless they are strong enough to beat both or either of those teams in the same year, they aren't going win a title regardless.
I remember listening to the post game after the keyser/fh game and listened to coach biser and he bascically stated other than being a local rivialry game it dont make sense to play FH. I basically dont get the point system in WV and dont understand why FH would not get them any points for a Keyser win over FH or even a lose. It would really suck to see them drop FH because it is always a big gate night for the home school.
In WV you get 0 points for losing to anyone.
Keyser would get (9) rating points if it beat Fort Hill, cause Fort Hill is a AA team in the WV Playoff system.
Also Keyser would get 1 bonus point for any wins by Fort Hill against a AA or AAA tem in the year that Keyser beats Fort Hill.
Keyser would get (9) rating points if it beat Fort Hill, cause Fort Hill is a AA team in the WV Playoff system.
Also Keyser would get 1 bonus point for any wins by Fort Hill against a AA or AAA tem in the year that Keyser beats Fort Hill.
9 points for a win against FH.
And based on FH going 9-1 with a loss to Keyser..that would mean a point for South, Sherando, Hollidaysburg, Alco, Mountain Ridge and possibly Brunswick. Thats 15 points.
Biser said 11 on his post game interview referenced above. He was off by a bit.
And based on FH going 9-1 with a loss to Keyser..that would mean a point for South, Sherando, Hollidaysburg, Alco, Mountain Ridge and possibly Brunswick. Thats 15 points.
Biser said 11 on his post game interview referenced above. He was off by a bit.
This being explained, it makes perfect sense why Keyser would drop Fort Hill. Why risk playing a tough team and not receiving any points? Why not just play a team you know you can beat?
Keyser received 15 points for beating FH last year, which was the most of any team they beat. That was with FH playing 9 games. Not sure how WV figures that in. In Maryland you get 1.11 bonus points for any defeated opponent that plays 9 games.
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It will be interesting. There are several train of thoughts in Keyser from different people about playing FH anymore. Coaches just want to get to the playoffs. There is no other reason for dropping FH. I keep telling all coaches at every school...if you are worried about making the playoffs with a 7-3 or 6-4 record, the last thing I would be concerned about is winning a state championship because that is not going to happen. Don't get me wrong...sure if a team loads up on a ton of powerful programs then yes I can see that. But no one in a 100 mile radius has loaded up on powerful programs. I would hope no one at Keyser takes offense to what I type now...but Keyser has zero shot at a state title this year. Yet they are worried to death about making the playoffs.
What I truly believe, and I won't single any one coach out because they all seem to do it...the "just making the playoffs" thing and trying to put up a winning record is nothing more than a personal issue. They evaluate themselves based on won/loss records and playoff appearances. When you live in a small town like we have in these parts, winning football equates to a better personal living situation where they catch little flack. So they all seek wins the easiest way they know how which is never to schedule better programs if possible. The playoff system in Maryland is horrible. But even in WV where they go 1-16 you can now see everyone there is also just trying to make the playoffs. Yes, WV Class AA is bigger this year. But the "just trying to make the playoffs" crying has been around WV long before the realignment. DO NOT misquote me though. I am not pointing the finger at WV. Coaches are way worse in Maryland about scheduling wins. This philosophy has gotten to the point where it's actually quite sickening from an athletic competition standpoint. We are teaching young men to avoid difficulty in hopes of being rewarded for the easier path taken.
That's the way I see it. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is out to schedule lesser quality opponents these days (not counting local/league commitments obviously).
Keyser has a major issue however, they will have to travel far distances to fill a schedule with AA level schools. For this reason I suspect they keep FH. But I could be wrong. They already have trouble finding games, trust me.
What I truly believe, and I won't single any one coach out because they all seem to do it...the "just making the playoffs" thing and trying to put up a winning record is nothing more than a personal issue. They evaluate themselves based on won/loss records and playoff appearances. When you live in a small town like we have in these parts, winning football equates to a better personal living situation where they catch little flack. So they all seek wins the easiest way they know how which is never to schedule better programs if possible. The playoff system in Maryland is horrible. But even in WV where they go 1-16 you can now see everyone there is also just trying to make the playoffs. Yes, WV Class AA is bigger this year. But the "just trying to make the playoffs" crying has been around WV long before the realignment. DO NOT misquote me though. I am not pointing the finger at WV. Coaches are way worse in Maryland about scheduling wins. This philosophy has gotten to the point where it's actually quite sickening from an athletic competition standpoint. We are teaching young men to avoid difficulty in hopes of being rewarded for the easier path taken.
That's the way I see it. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is out to schedule lesser quality opponents these days (not counting local/league commitments obviously).
Keyser has a major issue however, they will have to travel far distances to fill a schedule with AA level schools. For this reason I suspect they keep FH. But I could be wrong. They already have trouble finding games, trust me.
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In WV rating System you only get bonus points if a team you beat beats teams in its class or higher.
There is nothing counted if a team only plays 8 or 9 games for the 2 missing games its still 0.
The WV system is very easy to figure if you have everyones schedule and their opponents schedules and know what class each school is in.
I have a program to figure the WV points, but can actually add them up by hand faster than I can input all the scores for the program to be exactly correct.
WVSSAC RATING PLAN
AAA beats AAA 12 points
AAA beats AA 9 points
AAA beats A 6 points
AA beats AAA 12 points
AA beats AA 9 points
AA beats A 6 points
A beats AAA 12 points
A beats AA 9 points
A beats A 6 points
AAA ties AAA 6 points
AAA ties AA 4.5 points
AAA ties A 3 points
AA ties AAA 9 points
AA ties AA 4.5 points
AA ties A 3 points
A ties AAA 9 points
A ties AA 6 points
A ties A 3 points
BONUS POINTS:
For each game won by a defeated opponent in its class or higher:
AAA beats AAA 1 point
AA beats AA or AAA 1 point
A beats A, AA, or AAA 1 point
For each game tied by a defeated opponent in its class or higher
AAA ties AAA .5 points
AA ties AA or AAA .5 points
A ties A, AA, or AAA .5 points
For each game won by a tied opponent in its class or higher
AAA ties AAA .5 points
AA ties AA or AAA .5 points
A ties A, AA, or AAA .5 points
For each game tied by a tied opponent in its class or higher
AAA ties AAA .25 points
AA ties AA or AAA .25 points
A ties A, AA, or AAA .25 points
Add up all of your teams point totals
Divide this total by number of games played
This will give you your rating
Playoff Tiebreaking Procedures
(A)
If teams tie for the sixteenth position and competed against each other, the loser will be eliminated. If teams tie for any other position other than sixteenth and competed against each other, the winner will be selected for the higher position in pairing.
(B)
If a tie still exists which cannot be resolved by (A), the wins of their defeated opponents will be totaled and the team with the most bonus points in their class or higher as computed by the WVSSAC Rating Plan will be selected or moved up for pairings.
(C)
If A or B do not select any sixteenth place team or eliminate a tie above sixteenth, the team with the best win-loss record will be selected (based upon percentage).
(D)
Record against common opponent(s).
(E)
Difference of points scored minus points allowed by defeated opponents.
Not your points, but whoever you beat.
(F)
In case a tie still exists for any position which cannot be resolved by (A) through (E), a blind draw will be used to determine the position and sixteen participants for each class
WVSSAC RATING PLAN
AAA beats AAA 12 points
AAA beats AA 9 points
AAA beats A 6 points
AA beats AAA 12 points
AA beats AA 9 points
AA beats A 6 points
A beats AAA 12 points
A beats AA 9 points
A beats A 6 points
AAA ties AAA 6 points
AAA ties AA 4.5 points
AAA ties A 3 points
AA ties AAA 9 points
AA ties AA 4.5 points
AA ties A 3 points
A ties AAA 9 points
A ties AA 6 points
A ties A 3 points
BONUS POINTS:
For each game won by a defeated opponent in its class or higher:
AAA beats AAA 1 point
AA beats AA or AAA 1 point
A beats A, AA, or AAA 1 point
For each game tied by a defeated opponent in its class or higher
AAA ties AAA .5 points
AA ties AA or AAA .5 points
A ties A, AA, or AAA .5 points
For each game won by a tied opponent in its class or higher
AAA ties AAA .5 points
AA ties AA or AAA .5 points
A ties A, AA, or AAA .5 points
For each game tied by a tied opponent in its class or higher
AAA ties AAA .25 points
AA ties AA or AAA .25 points
A ties A, AA, or AAA .25 points
Add up all of your teams point totals
Divide this total by number of games played
This will give you your rating
Playoff Tiebreaking Procedures
(A)
If teams tie for the sixteenth position and competed against each other, the loser will be eliminated. If teams tie for any other position other than sixteenth and competed against each other, the winner will be selected for the higher position in pairing.
(B)
If a tie still exists which cannot be resolved by (A), the wins of their defeated opponents will be totaled and the team with the most bonus points in their class or higher as computed by the WVSSAC Rating Plan will be selected or moved up for pairings.
(C)
If A or B do not select any sixteenth place team or eliminate a tie above sixteenth, the team with the best win-loss record will be selected (based upon percentage).
(D)
Record against common opponent(s).
(E)
Difference of points scored minus points allowed by defeated opponents.
Not your points, but whoever you beat.
(F)
In case a tie still exists for any position which cannot be resolved by (A) through (E), a blind draw will be used to determine the position and sixteen participants for each class
Fascinating commentary, definitely something to keep for future reference.
"What I truly believe, and I won't single any one coach out because they all seem to do it...the "just making the playoffs" thing and trying to put up a winning record is nothing more than a personal issue. They evaluate themselves based on won/loss records and playoff appearances."
Lol I also basically said this very same thing about a month ago... And they sent a mob after me... They were foaming at the mouth and demanding my blood.. Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this... Wish you would have come to my defense then...
Well I probably have agreed with you more than you realized from a message board. I just don't focus on it primarily from a FH perspective. What other schools are doing is a huge factor. The dumbing down of a schedule reaches far and wide, it became contagious and now everyone has it big and small schools alike. Interesting enough though, I find this issue to be really strong in the rural areas more so than in the population centers. Maybe I'm wrong, don't know for sure. Maybe Boyz has some better input on that and why that might be.
I would ask bigsavage for a moment to step outside the FH scheduling circle for a moment and describe why he thinks most all coaches are dumbing down schedules so much around these parts.
I'm a huge fan of everyone playing football in the post season like every other sport. I push the agenda, just makes total sense. The 1-16 format does not solve the easy scheduling issues as WV schools will demonstrate. I have to keep reminding everyone here as well that we cannot point the finger at WV. The Garrett, Allegany and Washington County schools are far worse given the playoff situation.
From a FH standpoint, yes I don't see how putting a running second half clock on your first six opponents is helpful, which is what's going to happen. But it must be stressed that I DON'T COACH! And I trust that Coach Appel knows what he is doing and would do anything to make sure he gets what he needs to succeed. He's been at this far longer than any of us and is pretty damn football smart.
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Sherando guy here so I'm a little partial to the Virginia system which rewards you for playing good competition. You get points even when you lose but the better team you play the more points you get. For example:
Sherando beats Martinsburg they get 22 points for the win and 2 bonus points for every Martinsburg win. That game gave Sherando 36 points last year.
Sherando lose to Martinsburg they get 10 points for losing to them and 1 bonus point for every win Martinsburg gets. This year that will most likely be 20 points.
If you beat a bad team that only wins one game you get 24 total, if you lose to a good team like Martinsburg you still get close to 20. Make is worth the risk to play good people.
Sherando beats Martinsburg they get 22 points for the win and 2 bonus points for every Martinsburg win. That game gave Sherando 36 points last year.
Sherando lose to Martinsburg they get 10 points for losing to them and 1 bonus point for every win Martinsburg gets. This year that will most likely be 20 points.
If you beat a bad team that only wins one game you get 24 total, if you lose to a good team like Martinsburg you still get close to 20. Make is worth the risk to play good people.
Absolutely, that Virginia seems fantastic and would go a long way to fixing everyone's scheduling woes. You would see more people stepping up their competition.
"Basically".
I'm with Todd on this, in that I don't completely disagree with your premise. I get it, the schedule isn't great. And while I do think that FH is strong enough they would be beating most teams by a wide margin this year, it would be nice not to have 6 straight running clock games.
But saying you don't like the way teams are scheduling down isn't the same as constantly putting down FH. Over and over. We get it. Some of us even agree with you in theory. But you can only be so negative for so long before it gets irksome. FH has no obligation to buck a system that they are forced to play in. That's why I go back and forth with you.
I'll admit this schedule isn't as strong a schedule as FH is capable of playing...when you admit that you realize there really is very little that will change until the playoff system either recognizes strength of schedule or is more open to allow for competitive schedules.
Then we cool.
The sad part of the schedule issue is that on a night like tonight, with what is coming in there tonight, the crowd will be small and the atmosphere will be lame. I hate to say it but large crowds at the stadium are few and far between. Kids love to play in front of big crowds. to me that's an unintended consequence of the schedule.
Here is the complete ratings formula.
http://www.vhsl.org/doc/upload/fb-2016-weekly-ratings-Sept-271.pdf
http://www.vhsl.org/doc/upload/fb-2016-weekly-ratings-Sept-271.pdf
I think the problem is you guys keep saying I'm putting FH down when the only people that ever bring up FH are FH people other than me... Once you guys bring them into the equation I respond and maybe it's that you guys don't like my response?... But if you notice I say before speaking on FH, "that you guys are bringing up FH and I'm just responding..." And honestly in times past I probably did single them out but I look at it as the nature of the beast.. When your top dog all eyes are on you...
TDHelmick, in regards to your question to bigsavage on why most teams in your area try so hard to schedule down, I think it has something to do with the lack of championship aspirations or rather the realization of their odds of winning either a region or state championship with the presence of Allegany and Fort Hill in 1A West. If there are two goals you know you can't reach the one goal you can possibly get to is a playoff berth and a nice on paper record. With two spots already spoken for and only two left it becomes a race to the bottom in terms of doing everything you can schedule wise to game your way into one of those playoff spots and a successful season.
As for the adoption of the Virginia playoff point system in Maryland I think it's a interesting idea that I could get behind but it has some issues that aren't as prevalent in Virginia. The big hang up with the rewarding of points for losses for people in some regions will be that for the most part the schedules schools play are largely dependent on their county or league and there are differences in some cases in how many classes or which classes are in a particular conference.
If I look at Anne Arundel County for example, in a 12 team league 9 of the teams are 4A schools,two are 3A and one is 2A. The 3A and 2A teams are generally pretty bad even controlling for the size difference in league rivals based on the out of county game the smaller schools are allowed to schedule. Generally in any given year there are 3 or 4 good teams in the county and the 8 or 9 other teams are either horrible or just about average. The possible issue comes in where if I use 2A Southern for example. They reside in the traditionally strong 2A South with schools from PG county and the SMAC. Considering that those schools will at best get one or two 4A opponents on their schedule would it put those schools at a untenable disadvantage with Southern if they put together a 4 or 5 win season taking advantage of the weaker 7 or 8 teams in the county while getting points for the success of the better teams possibly leaving a better 7 or 8 win PG or SMAC team out of the playoffs.
As for the adoption of the Virginia playoff point system in Maryland I think it's a interesting idea that I could get behind but it has some issues that aren't as prevalent in Virginia. The big hang up with the rewarding of points for losses for people in some regions will be that for the most part the schedules schools play are largely dependent on their county or league and there are differences in some cases in how many classes or which classes are in a particular conference.
If I look at Anne Arundel County for example, in a 12 team league 9 of the teams are 4A schools,two are 3A and one is 2A. The 3A and 2A teams are generally pretty bad even controlling for the size difference in league rivals based on the out of county game the smaller schools are allowed to schedule. Generally in any given year there are 3 or 4 good teams in the county and the 8 or 9 other teams are either horrible or just about average. The possible issue comes in where if I use 2A Southern for example. They reside in the traditionally strong 2A South with schools from PG county and the SMAC. Considering that those schools will at best get one or two 4A opponents on their schedule would it put those schools at a untenable disadvantage with Southern if they put together a 4 or 5 win season taking advantage of the weaker 7 or 8 teams in the county while getting points for the success of the better teams possibly leaving a better 7 or 8 win PG or SMAC team out of the playoffs.
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Downstate everyone is in a conference, so you only have to find one or two games per year. And the other classifications are more balanced, so nobody would criticize you for playing lesser opponents during the regular season because you have to face a gauntlet in the playoffs. Also, most teams don't have realistic state title dreams. Therefore the scheduling isn't as crucial. If you're Bowie High School, you know you're not getting past Wise and ER, so it doesn't matter who else you play during the season. In both football and basketball (and maybe other sports that I don't follow closely), FH and/or Alco have a legit chance to make the state finals every single year.
I think this is a unique situation that FH is in in recent years because they are so dominant in 1A. If they would have to face 1 or 2 good teams (or at least 1) in the 1A playoffs, I don't think the regular season schedule would be such an important topic. Maybe if Baltimore Co can put together a good team, or if Douglass (PG) would drop to 1A, the situation would solve itself. In the meantime, I agree Coach Appel is doing the right thing. If winning the state title is your goal and you have a successful formula, why change what you're doing?
That is the truth. That is kinda why I threw Dunbar into the equation earlier. While Boyz claims that only FH people complained about them, it started to spread to others outside of just the 21502, especially on the Sun board. Criticisms of why are they playing in 1A, they should elect to move up a class, they recruit, etc. Same stuff I hear about FH now.
If FH were playing a weak schedule just to make the playoffs and not winning titles (like in the mid 90s), I'd be right there complaining about it (and I DID back then). But hey, they are winning titles. The formula is working, although, as someone pointed out..it isnt always exciting. A game in the rain tonight against, say, Walkersville or Bridgeport would be a lot more entertaining than against Capitol Christian. But alas, it is what it is.
As long as they are playing on December 3rd for #6, the season is considered a success. though maybe not considered exciting.
Great schedule discussion here. What Boyz is saying makes really good sense, very logical explanation. Not sure I could have said it better. And I'm with processworks too. These games just don't cut it and I get that from everyone young and old. It's the same for Alco so no one in Greenway is getting treated to the kind of football teams that deserves to be here. I have said it many times, there is no need to load up the schedule with bigger and better programs, but it certainly would not hurt to pick up one of two at least.
The Virginia point system is great. And ultrawalt is also correct, The problem state organizations are always going to have when they change something is that for some teams it's a great change, for others it might not be. There is no way to please everyone. I guess that holds true for just about anything political.
The Virginia point system is great. And ultrawalt is also correct, The problem state organizations are always going to have when they change something is that for some teams it's a great change, for others it might not be. There is no way to please everyone. I guess that holds true for just about anything political.
I prime example of padding there schedule is Boonesboro. Even when they made the jump to 2A they kept there cream puff schedule. Year in and year out they play to make a playoff spot.
Amen!!!!! Nice point system
