Bring back Turkey Day Game for 2020

Discussion in 'Western Maryland Football' started by westernMD, Jul 23, 2020.

  1. westernMD

    westernMD Hall of Fame Poster
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    If there is a high school football season in Maryland in 2020 it looks almost certain that only a few counties will be playing football which means no playoffs this year. It also looks like it will be an abbreviated schedule with all local games. So in order to make this football year special for the seniors, let them experience something that used to be the biggest tradition in this area but hasn't been seen since 1973. I am talking about the Alco/FH game being played on Thanksgiving Day.

    No matter how many games they can put together in an abbreviated season, the success or failure of this season would come down to that one big game. That is how it was from 1936-1973. The winner of that game celebrated for the next 9 months. There were no more games afterwards. Turkey Day game was the Super Bowl.

    I would love to see it happen again. Hopefully by Thanksgiving they can play in front of live fans but regardless, the game can still be typed and the seniors will get to participate in something that hasn't been done in 47 years.
     
  2. Lagmeister

    Lagmeister Hall of Fame Poster
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    Will parents be willing to march menacingly up to the castle on the hill because Doctor Frankenstein has created a monster or will they continue to acquiesce.
     
  3. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    I love the idea but assuming there even is a football season there won't be a full stadium. Maybe they can play it and broadcast it live on Commercial Video
     
  4. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    There won't be football in Maryland at any level. No winter or spring sports either. Class of 2021...we never knew ya.
     
  5. Lagmeister

    Lagmeister Hall of Fame Poster
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    Hey.... the school system is monitoring key health metrics..... Is this a great country or what?
     
  6. Commercial Video

    Commercial Video Junior Varsity Poster
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    We would prefer to broadcast and stream all of the games live if ACPS would let us.
     
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  7. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    I understand both sides of this argument. Money is super tight right now. It's so tight I can't even put it into words. It's the same argument...live stream vs. gate money. I hate to be a business man, but if I'm making the call then let's sit down and talk money.
     
  8. Commercial Video

    Commercial Video Junior Varsity Poster
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    We don’t livestream now........how is the gate income? Especially at Alco games? Does live radio affect the gate? “The same argument” may be, in reality, the same old assumption.
     
    8 Commercial Video, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
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  9. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    Gate income is the lowest in history. Concessions the lowest. Allegany gates even less. Live radio does affect the gate, live stream takes it down even further.

    But most know live radio not the same as live video. Again, we are both businessmen. It is absolutely about money, nothing else. Showing a live feed of the games absolutely takes away what little gate is still there. We are looking for reasons to add money for the kids, not take away from the kids. But again, I'm a business man and open to alternatives. Like maybe showing all fall sports with a live feed as opposed to just football. There has to be something in it for both sides.

    Honestly, I personally don't see the need to have 3 local radio stations broadcasting a game. I always take massive heat on that one from people with their hands on the radio side poker. It's especially difficult when FH is on the road and 3 radio stations show up and require accommodations. Sorry radio guys. I love all of you but it's never popular to look at logistics during hard times.
     
    9 TDHelmick, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
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  10. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    Any word down the PG County way about what spring football could look like? Was wondering what ideas might be on the table in regards to fall sports moving to spring. Not sure how small schools would handle or be capable of pulling that off. Not enough athletes playing one sport.
     
  11. Commercial Video

    Commercial Video Junior Varsity Poster
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    [QUOTE="TDHelmick, post: 56204, member: 14"Live radio does affect the gate, live stream takes it down even further." Got proof?

    "Showing a live feed of the games absolutely takes away what little gate is still there". .[/QUOTE] Again, got proof?

    Years ago, we did live TV broadcasts of every Allegany College basketball home game and they had a full house at almost every game. Bob Kirk's reasoning was that the regional exposure of his program created interest and a following. The viewer watching it on TV may someday, ride out and see a game in person. He also understood a very important thing which was that some people will never step foot in a gym or stadium to watch a game in person but they will follow the team on radio, TV, etc. Other, quite dedicated fans, would show up at the game and then go home and watch the replay on TV. Depriving an interested fan, who is unlikely to show up at the game, the ability to follow and enjoy the team worked against his philosophy. Did live TV and radio hurt his gate? No.

    If you think that a blackout of media coverage at a local high school football game will fill the stands, you're mistaken.
     
    11 Commercial Video, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
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  12. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    I agree with most of this but I suggested live video just for this year because of the extraordinary circumstances.

    Is there any story behind how 3 radio stations began broadcasting the games in the first place? If you grew up in Cumberland you may not understand how unusual it is to have even one terrestrial radio station broadcasting a high school game. And then add Commercial Video doing quality TV broadcasts. Most likely the only place in the Mid-Atlantic and maybe even the country that has 3 terrestrial stations and TV covering the games.
     
  13. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    They seem to be making it up as they go along. No real plan yet, I'll let you know if I hear anything or if they announce any plans.
     
  14. eaglesinsider

    eaglesinsider All Region Poster
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    Texas has one of the strictest broadcasting rules in all of HSFB: no Friday night football games on live TV or even live online broadcasts statewide, even if ESPN comes knocking and no postseason games on live TV until the state championship. They have waived all of those rules this season in light of COVID and potential capacity restrictions.

    It seems to me that you could recoup the lost gate revenue and then some by getting commercial revenue and sponsors for live broadcasts and giving the school a chunk of that. You could probably demand a much higher rate from advertisers for live stream vs. tape delay because there will be more eyeballs watching and you will have a captive audience that can't fast-forward or skip your advertisements during a live event.
     
  15. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    I could provide you a ton of links here that demonstrate why college football attendance hit an all-time low in 2019. They would only describe what common sense dictates. The cost of attending a football game versus watching it on High Def TV in the comfort of home has played out in most every sports lover's living room. Including my own. I didn't even make it to Detroit last year to watch Ty Johnson play. The TV coverage was every thing I needed and then some. I don't need to have a debate about it to understand that television has changed the sports world and how fans watch it. At least at the college level, they are being compensated massively for their lost ticket sales.

    My proof would be first hand with a 75 year old mother who was a cheerleader and graduated from FH. She goes to games every chance she can -- which usually means when it is not raining and not freezing cold. If she could watch the game live, her attendance levels would dip even further. And it is no secret the aging population in Cumberland is what's left. She and her friends have told me many times on Friday nights they just wish the game were on TV live. That also means less money for the kids.

    This is not 20 years ago. But since I was in high school in the early to mid-80s, Cumberland high school football games have always been on TV on a delay basis. I love that it was and still is on TV. But with money so tight, there is no way I would consider a move to make it live. I'm all about making sure kids get the finances they need to continue playing sports. We will all start to see that stop now due to COVID and the lack of funding that is about to happen on top of already being pretty close to broke.

    ON THE FLIP SIDE - if someone were capable of offering a fee to watch games live while sharing the revenue with the school then I would be all for it. This is absolutely a money issue. Nothing more.
     
    15 TDHelmick, Jul 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  16. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    To be fair to Commercial Video this isn't proof. But there is proof that if you bring good games to the stadium people will come out. FH made almost $6000 from the Erie game and that's not even counting concessions. They had the same numbers for the Melbourne game (not counting concessions). Home and home against Catoctin or Dunbar would be huge.
     
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  17. Commercial Video

    Commercial Video Junior Varsity Poster
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    College games have been live on TV for years. What made 2019 attendance different? and why, exactly, is live TV to blame?

    The cost of attending a local high school football game is minimal. Not sure I understand how the going to Detroit example applies.

    College programs with a national TV following and with international TV sponsorship vs. local high school programs with few local sponsors in a declining town which is economically suffering in a major way. I’ve been broadcasting (and streaming) local high school games funded on only by the sponsorships we sell, for over 30 years. No offense, but I am sure that you do know how difficult it can be, and has been, to get enough sponsors to make a season work. Couple that with time, equipment and labor costs. I have not missed getting a game on the air in those 30+ years and I’ll continue to make it happen.


    this is a big one- I think you just made Bob Kirk’ point. It seems that she wasn’t going to every game (due to weather) regardless if it was on TV or not. And as you said, we have an aging population doing the same thing. It is not “less money for the kids because of TV” if she, or they, were not going to the game anyway.


    Truth

    Can you help me understand how most high schools throughout the country, with no media coverage, and many with few fans in attendance, keep their programs funded and moving forward?

    So you advocate charging $ to view the games live? We can do that. I doubt that it would yield the income that you may be envisioning...,,.. also I believe that you said that “live” would hurt the concessions.........

    So what have we done to try and help, you might ask?

    Media fees, revenue sharing, etc. are peanuts in a small town like Cumberland. As owner of Commercial Video, with an interest in helping the stadium thrive. I helped form the Greenway Avenue Stadium Capital Improvement Fund. Donating money, my time and my media resources and pulling in local radio and the newspaper to promote our mission. . Our group has been able to raise and coordinate funding sources in the millions of dollars to improve the stadium. Ask Mark Manges, Greg Hare, Paul Green or any other member of our committee about what we are doing. I mention this because it’s important that people understand that we are helping to maintain the health of our local sports community, and on a level greater than token fees of percentages.

    Thank you for bringing this up. Yes, it is proven that people will show up for a real contest. Think of high school football as an entertainment product in an outdoor venue. The quality of the entertainment dictates the interest of fans to attend. The weather can influence the decision, but if the entertainment is good enough, people will show up. Better games can equal better attendance. Someone will ask, if the 2 games that you referenced were broadcast and streamed live, would it have hurt the gate? Erie streamed the game live. Catoctin streamed the semifinal with FH last year live with a full house. The perceived quality of the entertainment is what puts butts in the seats. And let’s face it, how difficult is it, really, to go to a local high school game at Greenway if you are motivated to go? It easy and cheaper than going to the movies.
     
    17 Commercial Video, Jul 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  18. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    That's a legitimate response. I'm extremely happy Commercial Video broadcasts the high school games. On top of that, it's a quality broadcast. I don't know of anyone who is not happy about it.

    But I am sure by now you already know the opinions of principals and BOE decision makers who feel putting the games on live stream will be detrimental to people coming to the game in person. A Bob Kirk example from many years ago is not remotely close to population and enrollment figures for comparison today. I know where the FH sports budget is right now and if I told some people they would not believe me.

    To put in an example...you won't see FH or Alco playing any teams from more than 2 hours away anymore. There is no more paying teams to come here, period. They will play 7 or 8 games before that happens. This directive was handed down long before COVID hit. The Keyser game that was set for 2020 was a one year deal at Keyser. No return game guarantee for FH. The decision was made strictly for money and travel reasons and the new policy of 2 hour travel limits. It's about to get even more tight with the football decisions.

    I can tell you are a fiscally responsible person. There are just some things you cannot do because of financial reasons. The same is true for high school athletic budgets.
     
    18 TDHelmick, Jul 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  19. bigdawgrefwmd

    bigdawgrefwmd Hall of Fame Poster
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    the only bad thing there is...... that means more empty seats at the stadium.
    I seen 1 game last year because it's just not worth it to watch blowouts.
    I did travel a few other times to watch some good games. the Martinsburg at Sherando turned into a blowout but for 3 quarters was a very competitive game.
    I would pay money to watch a live stream of the games
     
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  20. RedPride97

    RedPride97 All State Poster
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    Opponents have allot to do with with game attendance for sure. Watching silver oak or other teams in that category get murdered is not how i like to spend a Friday night. Build a good schedule and people will show up
     
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  21. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    What is the problem with the FH sports budget right now? It's public record so it's not like you are revealing a secret.

    FH has a new policy of 2 hour travel limits or is that a Allegany County policy?

    If this is a new policy how does it make fiscal sense? FH made almost $6000 on the Erie and Melbourne games. Allegany made about $5000 on the Dunbar game. Once again, that doesn't include money made from concessions or impact on local businesses.
     
  22. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    School athletic budgets are not available to the public. The travel policy is school based, not a county decision. Your profit margins on Erie are not correct. Especially when you figure in costs paid to them. In fact, the crowd at the ECP game was far below what was anticipated. Melbourne CC on the other hand was the crowd expected. That was a smart move to put that game on Saturday night and of course the weather participated. It took a ton of convincing to have FH shell out 5 figures to get a team here.

    The Morgantown, Hollidaysburg home game crowds were horrific. I think we counted approximately 150 paid tickets from the Morgantown Friday night game. And Morgantown came down to the final last minute. The playoff games - despite the gate going to the MPSSAA - the last two years have been the worst in the history of Cumberland football. Brunswick (which made a game out of it). Williamsport, who many felt could play with FH and even Randallstown (who took out favorite Gwynn Park the week prior) -- had about 400 people at the game max not counting the FH band. Filling a schedule with ECP and Melbourne are not options. If Dunbar wants a two year deal I'm positive any of the schools in Allegany County would be thankful to have it. Keyser on the other hand is a game that needs to be played financially for all schools involved.

    You can start another discussion about the FH schedule. I'm out of it and don't agree. The playoff attendance was all I needed to see regardless of who collected the gate. Way more people watched the delayed rebroadcast than actually attended those playoff games.
     
    22 TDHelmick, Jul 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  23. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    "School athletic budgets are not available to the public"??? This is the first time I've ever heard that a public school athletic budget was not available to the public. You do understand the program is funded with taxpayer money? As a person affiliated with the FH program, are you standing by this statement?

    "Your profit margins on Erie are not correct"? The Erie information came directly from the school. I think what you are saying is the gate receipts for the Melbourne game were much higher than the Erie game. And as you noted, you also had to pay Melbourne much more. But the actual profit margin was the same.

    People didn't come out in large numbers because nobody really expected Morgantown and Hollidaysburg to win those games. The same is true with the 1A playoff games, we've had numerous discussions about the current status of Maryland 1A football.
     
    23 BoyznBlue, Jul 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  24. FHHSAHS

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    If the school athletic budget is tax money, a simple FOIA request will get any info you need. It is absolutely public info. And if you're saying the BOE is not willing to share it, thats a problem in my book.

    Now considering the BOE financial budget reports are habitually ridiculously late, its quite possible they aren't even sure what the budget is. But thats a different story.
     
  25. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    If you can get public schools to show their concession and gate receipts for the year broken down by game as well as pay outs to officials, buses, financial contracts with other teams, cost of concession foods, Pepsi/Coke contract deals, Caporale dough for pizza contracts, security, lighting and janitor costs, etc. please get that info and share it with me. That is not tax payer money. Well maybe the security, lighting and janitor type costs are. And also probably bus costs and contracts with officials. But just finding out how much Allegany spent on uniforms last year would be cool to see, but I'm thinking you won't get that type of info with a simple FOIA request. Nor will you get access to gate numbers. That's not tax payer income.

    Some things you can probably get publicly but much of the stuff that is done through fundraising like the Red Huddle does. Nope, not going to get that info. And if it were not for the Red Huddle things like my Queen City Quad would never exist. I know how much they raised and how much they spent to feed 4 varsity and 4 JV teams but it is not public info.

    Speaking of which, this year's Queen City Quad has been officially cancelled. Big surprise. I had St. Frances B Team locked in with North Point and Tuscarora.

    I know gate receipt numbers for some games and could probably get them for the season by asking but trust me when I tell you that info is not to be shared. And if I did share it I would be cut out of the loop going back through 3 different principals. LOL.

    Although I can tell you that the pants and jerseys Coach Appel picked out several years ago...I was given full disclosure, they ran $18K. The ones we really wanted ran over $20K. That's just pants and jerseys only. I remember sitting at Coach Appel's home in the living room looking on the computer at the uniform mock ups to choose from and when he showed me the price tag options my immediate reactions was Holy Crap! The Red Huddle made sure we got those by the way, not all of it on tax payer dollars. So there is give and take in budgets obviously, some private some public.
     
    25 TDHelmick, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  26. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    You're going way too deep in the muck. The original question was about live broadcasts of games and how that affects attendance. The cost of uniforms, and I believe you that they are expensive, don't have anything to do with that. The Quad has nothing to do with that. The Red Huddle is not directly affiliated with FH - from what I understand - so they also have nothing to do with that.

    If you bring good games to Greenway people will come out and you will make money. That has been proven over time. If people know that by the time they get their stadium pizza and sit down the score will already be 21-0 they aren't going to come out. The 2 hour travel rule seems to be illogical if you can bring in a competitive school and make money.
     
    26 BoyznBlue, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  27. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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  28. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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  29. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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  30. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    Not sure what you are telling me with the data. I was given a total of $4800 for Cathedral Prep. Oh well not my concern anymore. See if you can post the Morgantown and Hollidaysburg numbers.

    You realize who is solely responsible for ECP and Melbourne coming here? You are preaching to the choir to a large extent. It took quite a bit of begging and convincing to get the head coach and principal to sign off on both those deals. Found the games, Negotiated the deals, Set the contracts up, Fed the teams (including breakfast, lunch and dinner for Melbourne), put together buses, hotel and plane tickets. All of it. So when I have the ECP return game yanked away out of my control after giving my word to ECP, you can maybe understand why I was "not so happy" to put it mildly. Also note who set up Friendship Collegiate. But I didn't cancel the return game.

    So as you can see...I'm on board with playing those type of games, even before the playoff format changed. So we are actually not so far apart Boyz.

    Back to the original topic. You would need to call the Allegany and FH principal and AD and the BOE office and ask them about the possibility of streaming games live (or ask Commercial Video who has already been down that road). Also ask those decision makers about playing Melbourne and ECP type teams. Let me know what they tell you. I am sure you have the number for Tedd and Bryan.

    As for Dunbar, oh yea if they want another two year deal to play any team in Allegany County, I will do all I can to make that happen sir. I'm on board with playing anyone with the new playoff format. I was before the new playoff format but not a full schedule of them.
     
    30 TDHelmick, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  31. TDHelmick

    TDHelmick Hall of Fame Poster
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    Ummmm, maybe you didn't watch FH in the opener vs. Loyola. Game 2 against Morgantown was critical and went down to the wire. There was no reason a crowd 20 years ago, rain or no rain, would not have packed an audience to see that game.
     
  32. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    I posted these because you questioned my statement about the ECP profits. I was trying to figure out why they installed the 2 hour restriction. It seems counterproductive if you can make money on a game. But I'm not disputing anything you are saying here.
     
  33. BoyznBlue

    BoyznBlue Blue Chip Poster
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    I completely understand what you are saying. That Loyola game was probably going to be a loss for FH if it wasn't canceled. The Morgantown game was tough and the Holidaysburg wasn't a cake walk either. But from an attendance perspective FH had blown out Holidaysburg 2 years in a row. I don't really know anything about Morgantown but they aren't a traditional rival, there was nothing special about that game unless you have a personal interest in either team.
     
  34. bigdawgrefwmd

    bigdawgrefwmd Hall of Fame Poster
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    I think the 2 Hour rule is FH won't travel over 2 hours, I would think they will still allow teams to come here and play.
    Morgantown has always had a good football program with the exception of the past few years and now with Biser there I look for it to be a very good program again.
     
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