Possible New MD Classifications

[beall02]

It has been talked about on here a little bit in the last month or so. And I know that we will find out for sure in the next couple weeks. But it is also fun to speculate a little as to what the MPSSAA will do when it comes to this years classifications.

As most of you know, several schools downstate (Baltimore City/PG County) have closed or dropped football, and two 1A schools consolidated which will move them to 3A. Two Baltimore City schools have also combined as far as fielding a football team is concerned. Forest Park and Northwestern has been approved by the City School system to combine their schools when it comes to players and field one football team. Question with that is what will the MPSSAA do about it? Will they recognize them as a MPSSAA member? And if they do will they combine their enrollment figures and re-class them. If they do approve it and let them be a member there are two possible outcomes. One being they keep them in 1A despite the fact it is two schools fielding the team. And the second being they combine their enrollment and move them into their appropriate class, which in this case would be 2A.

Either way the MPSSAA decides the other things happening in 1A has left it with 33-34 teams depending on what they do with the above mentioned situation. That is anywhere from 14-16 teams less then every other classification in football. With that being said. They have to do something. And it isn't just moving teams around in 1A to accommodate the North Region currently having just 4 teams. There are currently 183 member schools in football. Todd mentioned in a previous post that the plan for 2017 was to divide by four and have 46 teams in 3A, 2A, 1A and 45 in 4A. I put the one less team in 4A because two schools were at exactly the same amount of students and it worked better to put both in the same class rather then split them up. I couldn't really see saying team "A" you have the same amount of students as team "B" but you have to be in 3A instead of 4A because of a number thing. If they were to do that this year instead of doing a re-class this year as well as next year it would look like this:

1A West: Allegany, Boonsboro, Brunswick, Catoctin, Clear Spring, Fort Hill, Hancock, Mountain Ridge, Northern, Smithsburg, Southern, Williamsport

1A East: Cambridge SD, Central (PG), Colonial Richardson, Fairmont Heights, Frederick Douglass, Friendly, Kent County, McDonough, Snow Hill, Surrattsville, Washington

1A North: Bohemia Manor, Dunbar, Havre De Grace, Joppatowne, Loch Raven, Overlea, Owings Mills, Patterson, Patterson Mill, Perryville, Pikesville, Sparrows Point

1A South: Benjamin Franklin, Bluefield Drew Jemison, Edmondson, FAET, Lake Clifton, National Academy, New Era Academy, Reginald Lewis, SEED, Southwestern, Western STES

Catoctin, Central (PG), Dunbar, Frederick Douglass, Friendly, Loch Raven, Mountain Ridge, Overlea, Owings Mills, Patterson, Sparrows Point, Western STES and Williamsport would all move from 2A to 1A.

Mountain Ridge would be the third largest 1A school under this alignment. Central would be the second largest and Williamsport would be the largest. I am obviously figuring these classifications out based on 2015 enrollment numbers. The MPSSAA could ask for new numbers before they decide anything. There are 10 schools between the 700-750 range. 8 of those would be in 1A. There is always a chance that MR went up in numbers and one of the schools above them dropped. Should be interesting.

 

[towpath94]

the town drunk has his hands in this so I am sure he will be pushing his agenda that everyone sees through

 

[TDHelmick]

I'm told by a few in the know, which in the past has been completely wrong by the way, that the MPSSAA will not reclassify everyone 1A through 4A for the 2016-2017 sports season. That didn't make sense just to support some closings and consolidations in Class 1A. The main reason being this is not a reclassification year. And before you can reclassify you need accurate enrollment counts that can only be taken when school is in session. Using the enrollment counts taken from 2 years ago that are currently being used would cause problems. An example would be...say some small Class 2A school like Frederick Douglass picked up a bunch of students. They would actually be a big 2A school now or maybe even a small 3A. If we use the old enrollments from 2 years ago you may end up dropping a 3A type school back into 1A. Of course I just used Douglass as an example, you could apply that to any team or Class.

It's important to note beall02 that Class 1A has always been smaller (for football only) because a dozen or so schools don't field football programs. And even more important, you are using enrollments taken from 2 years ago as mentioned above. What is likely to happen starting fall 2017 (a reclassification year) is they take the total number of schools with football in the state and divide that by four, which makes your Class 1A projections close to what we might see give or take a few teams. Mountain Ridge by the way would be right on the cut off line by about 5 students by my calculations. The MPSSAA also will do this for every sport like they do in PA. So Mountain Ridge for example could be 1A in football and 2A in baseball/basketball. They will collect enrollment numbers this November and use those.

What is likely to happen for 1A football in 2016 is just a realignment. Like North Carroll/Manchester Valley who will be moved to 3A this year, so will Forest Park/Northwestern move up. The MPSSAA rules permit this situation when there is a consolidation between schools. But that doesn't mean they reclassify everyone.

The MPSSAA will certainly have to realign 1A this fall given there are currently only four teams in the 1A North. I suspect Brunswick may move out of the west being they are the only team from Frederick County. More important, the MPSSAA will have to break up the 1A South comprised of Baltimore City teams and put some of them into the North. How they split that up is beyond me.

 

[beall02]

The more and more I talk to people the more I believe they will just move teams around in 1A. That is a shame though. 1A is down to 34 teams if you include Forest Park/Northwestern and 33 if you don't. That is 15 to 17 less teams then every class. I understand that this is not a re-class year, I also understand that 1A has always had less teams then every other class in football, just seems to me that 15 to 17 less teams is a bit ridiculous. I am an action person so if I know something needs to be done I want to do it. They will be using 1 year old enrollment numbers next year when they re-class anyways so why not balance out 1A this year on 2 year old numbers and then still re-class next year. Of course, it all really doesn't matter, the winner of the State Championship in 1A will be the winner of the West Region anyways. Adding those 13 teams to 1A this year may not make that much of a difference in the end anyways.

The one thing I don't understand is the timing of Maryland's reclassification's. Seems to me it makes it hard on some AD's, especially the ones that are always on the brink of two different classifications, to come up with schedules appropriate to their classification if it changes. But then again I know most schedules are made a couple years in advance so I may be totally missing it on that end. You would have a better understanding of that Todd.

Mountain Ridge had 3 less students than Central (PG), 9 less than Williamsport who were the last two in 1A under my numbers, and had 10 less than Randallstown which was the first school in 2A. So yes, it would be extremely close for the Miners, and that is off of two year old enrollment numbers. It will be very interesting to see what the new numbers are come this fall.

I for one hope that Mountain Ridge stays in 2A. If they are added to 1A and placed in the West along with the other two teams mentioned it would be a loaded West Region and very difficult to get in the playoffs each year. (Allegany, Boonsboro, Brunswick, Catoctin, Clear Spring, Fort Hill, Hancock, Smithsburg and Mountain Ridge). Not saying that all those teams are the best teams but considering the schedules they all play currently, it would be tough to make the playoffs with 7 wins inthat region. Not diminishing how tough the 2A West is because it does have the two Howard County teams.

 

[beall02]

I'm told by a few in the know, which in the past has been completely wrong by the way, that the MPSSAA will not reclassify everyone 1A through 4A for the 2016-2017 sports season. That didn't make sense just to support some closings and consolidations in Class 1A. The main reason being this is not a reclassification year. And before you can reclassify you need accurate enrollment counts that can only be taken when school is in session. Using the enrollment counts taken from 2 years ago that are currently being used would cause problems. An example would be...say some small Class 2A school like Frederick Douglass picked up a bunch of students. They would actually be a big 2A school now or maybe even a small 3A. If we use the old enrollments from 2 years ago you may end up dropping a 3A type school back into 1A. Of course I just used Douglass as an example, you could apply that to any team or Class.

It's important to note beall02 that Class 1A has always been smaller (for football only) because a dozen or so schools don't field football programs. And even more important, you are using enrollments taken from 2 years ago as mentioned above. What is likely to happen starting fall 2017 (a reclassification year) is they take the total number of schools with football in the state and divide that by four, which makes your Class 1A projections close to what we might see give or take a few teams. Mountain Ridge by the way would be right on the cut off line by about 5 students by my calculations. The MPSSAA also will do this for every sport like they do in PA. So Mountain Ridge for example could be 1A in football and 2A in baseball/basketball. They will collect enrollment numbers this November and use those.

What is likely to happen for 1A football in 2016 is just a realignment. Like North Carroll/Manchester Valley who will be moved to 3A this year, so will Forest Park/Northwestern move up. The MPSSAA rules permit this situation when there is a consolidation between schools. But that doesn't mean they reclassify everyone.

The MPSSAA will certainly have to realign 1A this fall given there are currently only four teams in the 1A North. I suspect Brunswick may move out of the west being they are the only team from Frederick County. More important, the MPSSAA will have to break up the 1A South comprised of Baltimore City teams and put some of them into the North. How they split that up is beyond me.

One good thing for 1A teams if they do that is that most teams will basically have a 50-50 shot at making the playoffs this year as most regions would only have 8 teams in it. I see several 1A teams making the playoffs with under .500 records.

 

[TDHelmick]

There are 14-17 teams less in Class 1A for football. But not so in other sports. If you reclassified per your recommendations then you would have 14-17 more teams for Class 1A in the other sports because Maryland doesn't sort classes on a sport by sport basis. In other words, if you are a 2A school in one sport, then you are a 2A school in all sports. But that changed a bit last year as we saw with girl's soccer, which could be a sign of things to come. That is the biggest thing that has to change for the MPSSAA, they have to break down classes by every sport to do this like they do in PA. But I agree with your assessment that it's best to do this sport by sport so there are an even number of teams in football. I sense changes are coming. What's astounds me about that is they still can't change the stupid football playoff system, but they can do these other radical changes at the drop of a hat. Ridiculous!

In terms of using enrollments from 2 years ago you have to keep in mind that this whole thing is being shook up because of closings and consolidations. Which means a handful of schools will shrink or grow by significant numbers. You have to get an accurate enrollment in this situation. However, nothing the MPSSAA does would shock me. For all I know on August 25 they could reclassify everyone days before the first games are played.

 

[beall02]

I always remember 1A having less teams in football then any other class but I never recall it being this big of a difference. I agree with you in the fact that I believe they have to do it sport by sport. It makes too much sense not to. But then again we are talking about the MPSSAA. I honestly don't really see a way they could screw this or the playoffs up anymore then they already have but I shouldn't underestimate the MPSSAA. We should find out in short order. Thanks for your insight Todd!

 

[TDHelmick]

The MPSSAA has posted the new class alignments for 2016-17. There has been no reclassifications other than those schools that consolidated. The 1A West stayed the same but the others shifted. Looks like the East only has 5 football teams. I'm not sure if they will do a special alignment for football that isn't released yet.

http://www.mpssaa.org/assets/1/6/Region_Alignment_2016.pdf

 

[beall02]

The MPSSAA has posted the new class alignments for 2016-17. There has been no reclassifications other than those schools that consolidated. The 1A West stayed the same but the others shifted. Looks like the East only has 5 football teams. I'm not sure if they will do a special alignment for football that isn't released yet.

http://www.mpssaa.org/assets/1/6/Region_Alignment_2016.pdf

I think they will shift some around for football. I can't see them staying with just 5 in the East. Although I guess anything is possible. I feel like they could move Brunswick and Pikesville to the North and then move some other teams from the North to the East. They usually put the football alignment in the Sports Bulletin for it. Checked to see if they updated the bulletins but it still has last year's on their site. So we will have to wait a little longer to find that information out.

 

[eaglesinsider]

My thoughts on the matter:

Manchester Valley moves from 1A North to 3A West. North Carroll (formerly 1A North) has closed.

Lake Clifton and whatever they're calling the Forest Park-Northwestern merger (I was told "North Park" but the MPSSAA just has it as Northwestern and doesn't have Forest Park listed at all) move from 1A South to 2A North.

1A West stays the same, 1A North now has McDonough from the SMAC, the PG County 1A schools and the 1A schools in the UCBAC, a total of 14 schools, but only 8 play football. 1A South is still all the Baltimore City 1A schools plus Pikesville, who moves over from 1A North, for a total of 10 schools, 9 of which play football. 1A East is all the Eastern Shore schools, a total of 10, but only 5 of which play football.

Once again this showcases the MPSSAA's obsession of keeping the Baltimore City 1A schools together at the expense of common sense. In what world does it make sense to have a supposedly geographically based region that goes from Charles County to PG County, skips over Baltimore City and then has schools in Harford and Cecil County.

 

[eaglesinsider]

Beall02, here's my version of the proposal you made based on the new enrollment numbers they just published this week. Also, it seems like SEED is no longer an MPSSAA school, as they're not listed in the regional alignments or the enrollment data any longer.

4A West (12 Teams)- Bethesda-CC, Churchill, Einstein, Gaithersburg, Kennedy, Blair, Northwest, Northwood, Richard Montgomery, Whitman, Walter Johnson, Wootton
4A North (11 Teams)- Catonsville, Dulaney, Parkville, Perry Hall, Mervo, Paint Branch, Howard, Sherwood, Springbrook, Clarksburg, Quince Orchard
4A South (11 Teams)- Bladensburg, Bowie, Flowers, Wise, DuVal, Roosevelt, High Point, Laurel, Northwestern, Parkdale, Suitland
4A East (11 Teams)- South River, Meade, Old Mill, Broadneck, North County, Glen Burnie, Annapolis, Arundel, Severna Park, North Point, Leonardtown

3A West (11 Teams)- Manchester Valley, Westminster, Frederick, Linganore, Thomas Johnson, Tuscarora, Urbana, Seneca Valley, N. Hagerstown, S. Hagerstown, Franklin
3A North (12 Teams)- Dundalk, Milford Mill, Patapsco, Towson, Aberdeen, City, Poly, Bel Air, C. Milton Wright, Edgewood, Kenwood, Digital Harbor
3A South (11 Teams)- Huntingtown, Northern, Saint Charles, Blake, Magruder, Rockville, Watkins Mill, Wheaton, Oxon Hill, Great Mills, Chopticon
3A East (11 Teams)- Chesapeake-AA, Northeast, Atholton, Centennial, Long Reach, Mount Hebron, Reservoir, River Hill, Bennett, Decatur, Woodlawn

2A West (11 Teams)- Century, Francis Scott Key, Liberty, South Carroll, Winters Mill, Middletown, Walkersville, Oakland Mills, Poolesville, Damascus, Oakdale
2A North (12 Teams)- Chesapeake-B, Eastern Tech, Hereford, New Town, Lake Clifton, North Park, Wilde Lake, Douglass-B, Glenelg, Hammond, Lansdowne, Marriotts Ridge
2A South (11 Teams)- Southern, Calvert, Patuxent, La Plata, Lackey, Thomas Stone, Westlake, Crossland, Gwynn Park, Largo, Potomac
2A East (12 Teams)- Elkton, North East, Rising Sun, North Caroline, Fallston, Harford Tech, Kent Island, Queen Anne's, Easton, Parkside, Wicomico, North Harford

1A West (12 Teams)- Allegany, Fort Hill, Brunswick, S Garrett, N Garrett, Boonsboro, Clear Spring, Hancock, Smithsburg, Mountain Ridge, Williamsport, Catoctin
1A North (12 Teams)- Carver Vo-Tech, Ben Franklin, Bluford Drew Jemison, Edmondson, FAET, NAF, New Era, Lewis, Southwestern, Patterson, Dunbar, Overlea
1A South (11 Teams)- McDonough, Fairmont Heights, Surrattsville, Loch Raven, Central, Douglass-PG, Friendly, Pikesville, Randallstown, Owings Mills, Western Tech
1A East (11 Teams)- Col Richardson, Cambridge-SD, Kent Cty, Washington, Snow Hill, Bohemia Manor, Perryville, Havre de Grace, Joppatowne, Patterson Mill, Sparrows Pt

I tried to make even regions that made the best geographical sense possible.

 

[TDHelmick]

That looks pretty good eagle.
The enrollment numbers listed on the new MPSSAA alignments are the same enrollments that were taken two years ago. They won't take new enrollments until November and then reclassify next spring for 2017-18 seasons using those. The only new enrollments are the consolidated schools.

 

[beall02]

@eaglesinsider, other then the highlighted changes, I don't see any other changes to the enrollment numbers updated by the MPSSAA yesterday. I had an old copy of the ones posted last year and every school is the same except for the highlighted changes. Only other change I saw was getting rid of Forestville from PG County. Which I know was supposed to happen. Something that I found interesting was how they came up with Manchester Valley's numbers. If you add them and North Carroll's numbers from 2015 numbers it would be higher then what is listed in 2016 numbers. Did they already get a preliminary number from the school? Another interesting thing is the whole Northwestern/Forest Park thing. I don't see Forest Park listed on updated list but yet Northwestern is. I thought that was the school that was closing? Seems interesting they would keep them on but take Forest Park off. I also see they adjusted Lake Clifton's numbers in new list. Up from 569 to 800. Were they taking in some of the Northwestern kids as well? I'd like to know where they got the new numbers from because like I said above, every other school is unchanged from the numbers listed last year.

SEED School wasn't listed on enrollment numbers or school directory last year either. So I will be anxious to see if they are included in the football alignment when it comes out.

I like what you did with the new regions. I actually did do all four classifications as well but just posted 1A here because of the board I was posting in. I had very similar to you. Obviously if SEED isn't going to be a MPSSAA school that leaves an opening in 1A and Randallstown would be next up. I only have slight differences. I thought 2A and 3A were much easier to pair off into regions then 1A and 4A. 4A was difficult due to the majority of the schools in that class being from either Montgomery, Prince George's or Anne Arundel Counties.

 

[bleedred]

This would work for football, but you're missing the big picture here. Under your set up, the 1 and 2A would have one more team in their class than the 3 and 4 A teams. That doesn't seem bad however when you go to the other sports, you realize that there are about 12 to 14 other schools in the state that don't compete in football. When you factor them in, you'll see that most of them, if not all of them will fall into the 1A calss, leaving the 1A with at least a dozen or more teams than any other class. You don't have to be super intelligent to figure out that this system would be worse than what is all ready in play.

I'd be all for seeding teams in each sport. That makes sense, it's more work, but it makes sense. I also like the regional format. The set up isn't bad, it's the coaches who try to take the easy way into the playoffs that are bad. I like regional games and lets face it, if you can't beat the teams in your region, you shouldn't be playing for a state title. At any rate, it looks like after this fall we'll have some changes, I hope that they will improve what we have going on in High School sports in this state.

 

[mccoke]

MD should adopt the 9 week season and 5 week playoff system. Hopefully that is in the near future.

 

[eaglesinsider]

, other then the highlighted changes, I don't see any other changes to the enrollment numbers updated by the MPSSAA yesterday. I had an old copy of the ones posted last year and every school is the same except for the highlighted changes.

Yeah you're right, my bad.

Something that I found interesting was how they came up with Manchester Valley's numbers. If you add them and North Carroll's numbers from 2015 numbers it would be higher then what is listed in 2016 numbers. Did they already get a preliminary number from the school?

I'm guessing they did get a preliminary number from Man Valley. Not all the North Carroll students went to Manchester Valley, they also sent some (50-100) to Westminster.

Another interesting thing is the whole Northwestern/Forest Park thing. I don't see Forest Park listed on updated list but yet Northwestern is. I thought that was the school that was closing? Seems interesting they would keep them on but take Forest Park off. I also see they adjusted Lake Clifton's numbers in new list. Up from 569 to 800. Were they taking in some of the Northwestern kids as well? I'd like to know where they got the new numbers from because like I said above, every other school is unchanged from the numbers listed last year.

Originally they were going to close Northwestern at the end of the 2015-16 school year. I was told that they decided at the last minute to postpone for a year, but because they had already redone the athletic schedules and left Northwestern off, they decided to have them be a co-op program with Forest Park. I was originally told that this co-op program would be known as Forest Park-Northwestern, then I was told that they were going to be called North Park. Then I learned it isn't technically a co-op, what they're technically doing is closing Forest Park this year and sending all the Forest Park students to Northwestern while they completely renovate Forest Park. For the 2017-18 school year, they will close Northwestern permanently and all the students that are now at Northwestern will go to the renovated Forest Park, now named North Park. I was then told that they wouldn't be using the North Park name until they officially merged the two schools after they finished renovations. Since the students from both schools are in the Northwestern, they decided to use the Northwestern name. So that's the long way of saying that yes, Northwestern is the (confusingly) correct name for this merger for this year, and this year only.

 

[eaglesinsider]

This would work for football, but you're missing the big picture here. Under your set up, the 1 and 2A would have one more team in their class than the 3 and 4 A teams. That doesn't seem bad however when you go to the other sports, you realize that there are about 12 to 14 other schools in the state that don't compete in football. When you factor them in, you'll see that most of them, if not all of them will fall into the 1A calss, leaving the 1A with at least a dozen or more teams than any other class. You don't have to be super intelligent to figure out that this system would be worse than what is all ready in play.

I said you'd do this differently for each sport, so you'd take the number of basketball teams, divide by 4, those are your classifications. You'd do it for soccer, volleyball, baseball and every other sport.

If there are 220 basketball teams, you'd have 55 teams in 1A, 55 teams in 2A, 55 teams in 3A and 55 teams in 4A. 1A would never have more than 1 team more than the rest of the classifications in any sport.

I just didn't feel like doing this for every sport on my own time. Doing football didn't take too long since I know which schools play and which don't, but figuring out who plays baseball, soccer, lacrosse, etc... didn't really seem like a good use of my time, since I'd already demonstrated how the concept would work with football.

 

[bleedred]

Got it, and I'm in if the state would jump on board. Don't know how I missed you saying about doing it for every sport, I'll blame it on being old. I also really like the 9 game schedule with 5 weeks of playoffs.

 

[beall02]

I said you'd do this differently for each sport, so you'd take the number of basketball teams, divide by 4, those are your classifications. You'd do it for soccer, volleyball, baseball and every other sport.

If there are 220 basketball teams, you'd have 55 teams in 1A, 55 teams in 2A, 55 teams in 3A and 55 teams in 4A. 1A would never have more than 1 team more than the rest of the classifications in any sport.

I just didn't feel like doing this for every sport on my own time. Doing football didn't take too long since I know which schools play and which don't, but figuring out who plays baseball, soccer, lacrosse, etc... didn't really seem like a good use of my time, since I'd already demonstrated how the concept would work with football.

I would love the state going this route. I don't think it will happen though. Look at how long it took to just do one sport. Do you think they would take the time to do each sport? I honestly believe it is the only way to go though, especially when you have such a big difference between the schools that play each sport.

At first I was intrigued by the thought of moving to a 9+5 schedule. I know that it would make some things a lot easier. I hope they stick with the 10 game regular season. Every fall it seems like the regular season already goes by so fast I can't imagine losing one game. The three biggest pluses that I could think of is that every team would make the playoffs, it would make it easier to come up with a schedule, and the fact that every team is guaranteed a playoff spot could make for better games during the regular season. Knowing that a loss during the regular season won't hurt as much in a system where everyone makes the playoffs.

 

[ed r forshey]

Does a team at 0-10, 1-9, 2-8, 3-7, 4-6, 5-5 really need to be in any playoffs.
also does a team with any of those records really want to play another game against a opponent that is 10-0, 9-1, 8-2, 7-3, 6-4 most wouldn't

 

[TDHelmick]

Does a team at 0-10, 1-9, 2-8, 3-7, 4-6, 5-5 really need to be in any playoffs.
also does a team with any of those records really want to play another game against a opponent that is 10-0, 9-1, 8-2, 7-3, 6-4 most wouldn't

Every other sport does it. Football is the only sport that doesn't. People just are not used to the idea that's all. First off, most every good team already loads up the regular season with teams that finish 0-10, 1-9, 2-8, 3-7, 4-6. It's called scheduling to make the playoffs here. That's the problem.

We have a regional set up in Maryland. That's why.
Either do away with the regional set up and maybe go 1-16 like WV. Or force teams in each region to play each other. Can't have it both ways. When a system exists that advances the top 4 teams from a region into a playoff, but yet none of the teams in the region play each other it makes no sense. Everyone just tries to schedule the worst teams possible.

If everyone makes the playoffs, then some of the good teams will schedule other good teams without fear of missing the playoffs. This way you actually set up a situation that is what you're asking for. And that is avoiding games where a 8-2 team plays a 1-9 team every other week.

 

[beall02]

Of the three possible choices, and leaving it the way it is would not be one of those, I would rank them as follows:

1.) Go to a strictly 1-16 format for each classification
2.) Leave the current system as far as 4 regions in each classification but come up with some type of mandatory regional play and enforce it
3.) Go to the 9 game regular season and 5 game post season format

Most teams big rivals are in their region anyways. And for an area such as this, where some rivals are out of state, it still gives them the opportunity to schedule those games each year. So if they were to go to #2 it wouldn't cause too much of an issue.

As I have stated in the past, I am all for the 1-16 format. To me it makes the most sense. I am discouraged by the article that I believe @Waggle Pass brought up from the Baltimore Sun stating that Andy Warner is happy with just keeping "status quo." I was really looking forward to some changes. One thing I did like in the article was the fact that he said he really depended on each county and their directors to run the MPSSAA and the championships. Maybe that means he listens to them when they ask for change.

 

[bleedred]

The 1-16 system still allows teams to manipulate their schedules in order to get into the playoffs. Last year, in WV, a coach lost on purpose in order to get out of a bracket that had his team playing Bridgeport early. It wasn't that long ago the the Northern Coach all but demanded that Northern be placed in the playoffs ahead of a Fort Hill team that was not only down but had a nine game schedule that year. (Fort Hill had still out pointed them in the ratings system.)

The point is that these type of systems can be and are manipulated by people who want the easy way out. The only way to stop it is to force teams into Regional play to move on. The 9 week season, 5 week playoff is the best way of doing that without the State completely taking over the scheduling for each school.

 

[beall02]

The 1-16 system still allows teams to manipulate their schedules in order to get into the playoffs. Last year, in WV, a coach lost on purpose in order to get out of a bracket that had his team playing Bridgeport early. It wasn't that long ago the the Northern Coach all but demanded that Northern be placed in the playoffs ahead of a Fort Hill team that was not only down but had a nine game schedule that year. (Fort Hill had still out pointed them in the ratings system.)

The point is that these type of systems can be and are manipulated by people who want the easy way out. The only way to stop it is to force teams into Regional play to move on. The 9 week season, 5 week playoff is the best way of doing that without the State completely taking over the scheduling for each school.

I am curious as to what you mean when you say... "Regional Play to move on"? I don't know why a 10-game regular season would prevent you from playing regional teams. I guess the big question would be what is everyone's definition of "Regional Play?"

 

[bleedred]

Simple, the 1A West is a Region, the 1A East is a Region. The State for what ever reason is committed to Regional play. The problem is that they don't, or don't know how to enforce it during the football season. In every other sport, a team has to win it's region by playing against the schools in their Region. No other games matter. Football is the exception and it's only because four teams in each region are involved in post season play. By expanding the playoffs by one week, you are increasing the post season teams from 4 to 8 in each region. This will mean that almost everyone will be involved in post season play. Instead of worrying about 3 losses knocking a team out of the playoffs, it would then take 6, 7, or 8 losses to keep them home, and the bottom line is that a team is going to have to beat the better teams in it's region to advance

 

[ultrawalt]

In the majority of regions most teams wind up playing 40 to 50 percent of their schedule against teams in their region through league play so the state isn't likely to impose strict region play and in some cases break up county or region based leagues and in some cases add significant travel costs to some school systems. It's going to be hard for the state to tell Stephen Decatur or James Bennett in Worcester and Wicomico counties to take 2 hour long trips across the bay to Anne Arundel and Howard counties 3-5 times in a 10 game season to rectify an issue with Western Maryland teams not being willing to play each other. Especially if the state isn't going to put some money towards travel. It's going to be hard for the MPSSAA to impose a state wide solution to what can be considered a problem of local scheduling politics.

 

[bigdawgrefwmd]

The 1-16 system still allows teams to manipulate their schedules in order to get into the playoffs. Last year, in WV, a coach lost on purpose in order to get out of a bracket that had his team playing Bridgeport early. It wasn't that long ago the the Northern Coach all but demanded that Northern be placed in the playoffs ahead of a Fort Hill team that was not only down but had a nine game schedule that year. (Fort Hill had still out pointed them in the ratings system.)

The point is that these type of systems can be and are manipulated by people who want the easy way out. The only way to stop it is to force teams into Regional play to move on. The 9 week season, 5 week playoff is the best way of doing that without the State completely taking over the scheduling for each school.

you still have to beat teams that win games and get points for school size. If you can't make the playoffs when they take 16 Teams like in WV, that just means your team wasn't any good and didn't belong. The best thing Maryland could do would be to get rid of regions and take 1-16 and the scheduling nightmare would be over. There will still be 5-5 teams making the playoffs every year but teams like FH could load the schedule and go 4-6 or 5-5 playing all tough teams and would still Qualify.

 

[beall02]

Simple, the 1A West is a Region, the 1A East is a Region. The State for what ever reason is committed to Regional play. The problem is that they don't, or don't know how to enforce it during the football season. In every other sport, a team has to win it's region by playing against the schools in their Region. No other games matter. Football is the exception and it's only because four teams in each region are involved in post season play. By expanding the playoffs by one week, you are increasing the post season teams from 4 to 8 in each region. This will mean that almost everyone will be involved in post season play. Instead of worrying about 3 losses knocking a team out of the playoffs, it would then take 6, 7, or 8 losses to keep them home, and the bottom line is that a team is going to have to beat the better teams in it's region to advance

I am fully capable of understanding what consists of a region. My question to you is what would you define as "regional play." The MPSSAA could give a crap about who teams play during the regular season. As long as they are a credentialed MPSSAA team then so be who you put on your schedule.

All they care about is starting the playoffs out in regional play to minimize cost to them. Other than that they could care less about regional play. I am sure they will say other things to make you believe there are other reasons for the regions. But in the end it is all about the money they save by having a regional playoff system. I can understand that though. Even though Maryland isn't that big of a state compared to some, a trip for Cambridge to Frostburg would be a haul for a first round playoff game. My argument to them would be that this is the playoffs. Cost shouldn't be a factor. They money they bring in would cover the cost of the games. They just wouldn't have as big of a profit in the end.

Football still does the same thing as every other sport playoff wise. They just don't include everyone in the post season. You still have to win your region to advance in football. You just don't have to beat up on 0-10, 1-9, and 2-8 teams in the first round like the other sports do. Most other sports you can have two games in a week which cuts down on the playoff time and gives them the opportunity to include every team. You can't play two football games in a week.

Expanding the playoffs by one week and only netting 4 teams in each region is not worth it to me. All this does is give the teams that are .500 or just under a chance to get pummeled by a 9-0, 8-1 or 7-2 team. And how could you get away with saying that almost all of 1A gets in the postseason but 16 to 18 teams are left out of the post season in every other class?

Seems to me that you want this type of system in order to encourage teams to schedule tougher. What's to say that if they do go to it that these teams will in fact do that? I know that some teams wouldn't mind scheduling tougher during the regular season if it means they are guaranteed a chance to play in the post season. But who's to say that every team will do it?

If I have to choose between a regular season game and a first round playoff game that will likely be decided by 20+ points I'd rather have the regular season game. I wouldn't want to pay MPSSAA playoff game prices to see Fort Hill drub Clear Spring by 50.

 

[bleedred]

Wow, Beall, you almost wrote a book here. In an earlier post you asked me what a region consisted of, I answered there was no intent to insult you. You're right on about the State caring only about money. Hey they really don't care who wins what, they just want paid.

Anyway, I like the idea of adding an extra round of playoffs. Yes some 3-6 or even some 2-7 teams may squeak in. But it would allow some teams to take on some tougher opponents during the year. I know that some teams won't change their scheduling but hopefully the two city schools will. The bottom line for me is that I'd cede to a couple of playoff blowouts for a couple of quality football games during the season. But I also feel that the city schools should be diligent in their scheduling to not schedule themselves out of a playoff spot due to the current format.

In the end, the State is going to do what it wants to do. Let's just hope that it's better than we have now and it takes coaches and AD's a long time to figure out the loopholes to manipulate the system.

 

[TDHelmick]

If I have to choose between a regular season game and a first round playoff game that will likely be decided by 20+ points I'd rather have the regular season game. I wouldn't want to pay MPSSAA playoff game prices to see Fort Hill drub Clear Spring by 50.

But this is what you are already getting through the regular season relentlessly. Except it's by 40+ points with a running second half clock most of the time. The 9 + 5 format makes total sense. I think some people can't embrace it because they just are not familiar with it. You are worrying about a first round playoff blow out that may be Brunswick vs. Alco or Southern vs. Boonsboro or FH vs. Clear Spring -- but you already get that in the regular season multiple times. If everyone made the playoffs then you would not have to sit through this most every Friday night. There has to be other reasons you don't want everyone to make the playoffs in this format. Saying that the first round isn't worth having is what we already have all year because everyone is scheduling to make the playoffs.

I don't want to see Hancock play Alco in a first round basketball playoff game either. Football is not different than every other sport despite the fact many want to interpret it that way. There are huge mismatches in every sport. Of course I'm using 1A West as the example on this board. But you can plug it in with any class or region. A 9+5 system lets every one play or not play whomever they wish. The regular season games would become fabulous!

 

[FHHSAHS]

I don't want to see Hancock play Alco in a first round basketball playoff game either.

I understand the intent of your comment, but Clear Spring surprised the Campers in a second round game this past year. just saying...though not always, you still gotta play to win.

 

[ultrawalt]

While it can be argued that there can be positives from expanding the playoff system so everyone gets in (mainly increased participation) there are several issues that the state would have to work out. One would be the 10 game schedule and the amount of people married to that concept. It's going to be hard to "expand" the playoff system and shorten the season to 9 games. The compromise that would most likely happen to gain support is keeping the 10 game season under league,county and school control and adding the extra week from there. There's also the issue of how to alter the seasons. Adding a week to the end of the season extending into mid December would draw significant push back from winter sports. You can push each season back but then you're scrambling to reschedule championships at various venues. The alternative would be starting the fall seasons and practices a week earlier and trying to get buy in from administrators who may be weary. Your next issue would be the sizes of the regions with many having 11-14 teams. While the byes work in other sports those brackets are set up for 6 rounds of play. So you are either adding another week to the season or adding two classifications for football to make a 5 week postseason work. These changes are theoretically feasible and you can argue for them but then you have to figure out getting jurisdictions on board for that drastic of a change without a real crisis in the current system outside of political schedule issues in 1A West.

 

[TDHelmick]

Good points ultrawalt. One thing is certain, and this is extremely important to note, the state will NOT do away with regions. That ends the 1-16 debate. That's how I came up supporting the 9+5. Just come up with something, anything that can help. What we have now is insanely screwed up. Luckily, the metro areas are now fed up with it and it just isn't a Western MD thing. Douglass (PG) last year was the prime example of everything that is wrong with this current system. And again, based on the fact the state won't do away with the region playoff format (due to money and travel issues) this is the only logical way to do it. Other than force teams to play each other in the region which is the other thing the state will NOT do.

I think everyone agrees that you cannot pick the four best region teams if nobody plays each other. Every time I type that I am left scratching my head at the stupidity behind it.

In PA they have to win 16 games to be state champs and that season carries deep into the holiday season. I'm not for that. What you do in the 9+5 format is make sure everyone is guaranteed 10 games, even the teams that don't make the playoffs. The season length or number of games stays the same. What I'm trying to do is work within the confines of knowing what the state will NOT do.

I keep hearing people drift back to the 1-16 thing. Listen up...THE STATE IS NOT GOING TO BREAK UP THE REGIONAL PLAYOFF SET UP. So any further comments need to come up with a format that utilizes the regional playoff set up.

 

[ultrawalt]

The Douglass/Gwynn Park example is a interesting case. Judging by the success of Gwynn Park in the playoffs, beating the #1 seed in their region and only barely losing to the eventual state champions on the road, it's not a huge leap to believe Douglass would have won a championship judging by their (admittedly early season) 30 point win over Gwynn Park. It's interesting to note that Gwynn Park only lost 2 regular season games, the 7-3 record coming from a protest forfeit to Forestville, so that aside they are looking at a 8-2 record even though that leaves the issue of Douglass still not qualifying. With the current system Gwynn Park made the playoffs with an identical 7-3 record due to the fact that the points Douglass got for beating Gwynn Park were trumped by the points Gwynn Park got by beating 3A opponent(and eventual 3A south region champion) Potomac on a last second Hail Mary. Unfortunately for Douglass they lost to the same Potomac team ironically on a last second Hail Mary. So Douglass winds up with fewer win/bonus points than Gwynn Park. You flip both results with Gwynn Park beating Douglass by 30 and losing to Potomac while Douglass beats Potomac, Douglass is in the playoffs. So this situation if repeated with the same caliber of team could inspire change. The solution in this case could have been to add additional weight to regional games or something of that order.

 

[beall02]

Wow, Beall, you almost wrote a book here. In an earlier post you asked me what a region consisted of, I answered there was no intent to insult you. You're right on about the State caring only about money. Hey they really don't care who wins what, they just want paid.

Anyway, I like the idea of adding an extra round of playoffs. Yes some 3-6 or even some 2-7 teams may squeak in. But it would allow some teams to take on some tougher opponents during the year. I know that some teams won't change their scheduling but hopefully the two city schools will. The bottom line for me is that I'd cede to a couple of playoff blowouts for a couple of quality football games during the season. But I also feel that the city schools should be diligent in their scheduling to not schedule themselves out of a playoff spot due to the current format.

In the end, the State is going to do what it wants to do. Let's just hope that it's better than we have now and it takes coaches and AD's a long time to figure out the loopholes to manipulate the system.

I believe that the start of my response was a little too strong and I apologize for that @bleedred. It certainly wasn't meant to be that way. Just a bit of a misunderstanding I suppose. As my original question to you was what you consider as regional play not what you consider a region. But all is good.

 

[TDHelmick]

The point being though that 2A Douglass also lost to huge 4A Wise (arguably the best team in the entire state public or private), Recruiting Baptist and Potomac. The defending state champs were eliminated from a chance to defend their crown by a system that penalized them for playing really good teams. Douglass would have gotten more points by beating SEED School then they did losing to the best team in the state. That's a MASSIVE problem in my book and is the reason teams schedule to make the playoffs.

 

[beall02]

But this is what you are already getting through the regular season relentlessly. Except it's by 40+ points with a running second half clock most of the time. The 9 + 5 format makes total sense. I think some people can't embrace it because they just are not familiar with it. You are worrying about a first round playoff blow out that may be Brunswick vs. Alco or Southern vs. Boonsboro or FH vs. Clear Spring -- but you already get that in the regular season multiple times. If everyone made the playoffs then you would not have to sit through this most every Friday night. There has to be other reasons you don't want everyone to make the playoffs in this format. Saying that the first round isn't worth having is what we already have all year because everyone is scheduling to make the playoffs.

I don't want to see Hancock play Alco in a first round basketball playoff game either. Football is not different than every other sport despite the fact many want to interpret it that way. There are huge mismatches in every sport. Of course I'm using 1A West as the example on this board. But you can plug it in with any class or region. A 9+5 system lets every one play or not play whomever they wish. The regular season games would become fabulous!

I don't disagree with you at all. We do see those games all the time during the regular season. And to be honest we have seen it more and more in this area over the past few years. I can remember writing previews for the weekend action and recaps of the action and having only one game within three touchdowns. It is a major problem if you are a high school football fan.

Who is to say that every team, or the majority of teams for that matter, will schedule differently if they go to the 9+5 system? I have no doubt that you, as the schedule maker at Fort Hill, would probably schedule differently if you were guaranteed a chance at a State Championship by getting in the playoffs each year no matter what your regular season is like. But I guarantee that the majority of teams will keep very similar schedules. It doesn't matter what system you go to there will be some who try to cheat the system in some manner.

If I had the choice to go to a Mountain Ridge/Southern regular season game or 1st round playoff game I am going to the regular season game 10 out of 10 times. I'm not paying extra money to see the same game in the first round. I could be alone in that manner and I know some may think I am crazy.

I absolutely DON'T like that all other sports have every team making the postseason. The playoffs are supposed to be special and something you have to earn. I'm sorry but I don't believe that a 3-7 team deserves nor earned a spot in the playoffs. I believe it is teaching our kids wrong that no matter what you do during the regular season you will get in the playoffs. It makes it seem as if the regular season doesn't mean squat. I obviously know that seeds, byes and home field advantage are some of the things that could bring meaning to the regular season in this type of format. And I know we are talking about high school sports here but as with anything that goes on in high school... we are supposed to be preparing these young student athletes for the future and I don't believe saying you get in the postseason no matter what is something we should be teaching.

We clearly have two different opinions and that is what makes this country great. I can respect your opinion but disagree with it at the same time. One thing I would like Todd, and I know you did this in the past, but could you go over again what your 9+5 proposal would be?

 

[Red Dude]

The point being though that 2A Douglass also lost to huge 4A Wise (arguably the best team in the entire state public or private), Recruiting Baptist and Potomac. The defending state champs were eliminated from a chance to defend their crown by a system that penalized them for playing really good teams. Douglass would have gotten more points by beating SEED School then they did losing to the best team in the state. That's a MASSIVE problem in my book and is the reason teams schedule to make the playoffs.

That's the point I've been banging on for years. Getting points for staying at home and beating Little Sisters of the Poor by 60, but getting NOTHING for losing by 1 in OT on the road against a powerhouse. Sumpin' ain't right!!!!

 

[FHHSAHS]

I like the expanded playoffs, from the standpoint of the old 8 team system of 4 regionals and 4 at large, was too narrow of a cross-section. It needed to be expanded to more teams...but I still think the at-large bid was good for the system. It rewarded teams who had good schedules, good records, and decent point totals...while eliminating the issue of teams getting in merely because of where they are located.

There were times that an 8-2 team (3A Fort Hill in 1988 being one of them) didn't get in simply because they were in a tough 3A west region. FH's only losses that year were to a tough Hollidaysburg by 1 point and a homecoming loss to eventual 2A state champion and super tough Alco team. If memory serves, FH barely missed the cut by a small margin. McDonough was the 3A west rep who lost in the first round. Duval won their only title that year out of the 3A south.

But had playoffs been expanded with at-large bid then, an 8-2 FH would have been in.

My point has nothing to do with belaboring FH not getting a shot, moreso that the system would have still been fine if the at-large bid was combined with more teams than only 8. That system would work to keep out teams with poor records, still allow teams with decent records and tough schedules to get in, and not put so much emphasis on the regions when there is no regional enforcement.

Yeah yeah, I know the regions are here to stay. But I never liked the expansion without the at-large bid still being a factor. Even if they did the top two teams in a region, then 8 at large teams. Sure, that could mean that one region could have way more representative teams, but it would at least be teams with good records.

I dunno. It is what it is. Still, the easiest of all solutions would just be to make a minimum number of regional games a requirement. Easier said than done.

 

[beall02]

I like the expanded playoffs, from the standpoint of the old 8 team system of 4 regionals and 4 at large, was too narrow of a cross-section. It needed to be expanded to more teams...but I still think the at-large bid was good for the system. It rewarded teams who had good schedules, good records, and decent point totals...while eliminating the issue of teams getting in merely because of where they are located.

There were times that an 8-2 team (3A Fort Hill in 1988 being one of them) didn't get in simply because they were in a tough 3A west region. FH's only losses that year were to a tough Hollidaysburg by 1 point and a homecoming loss to eventual 2A state champion and super tough Alco team. If memory serves, FH barely missed the cut by a small margin. McDonough was the 3A west rep who lost in the first round. Duval won their only title that year out of the 3A south.

But had playoffs been expanded with at-large bid then, an 8-2 FH would have been in.

My point has nothing to do with belaboring FH not getting a shot, moreso that the system would have still been fine if the at-large bid was combined with more teams than only 8. That system would work to keep out teams with poor records, still allow teams with decent records and tough schedules to get in, and not put so much emphasis on the regions when there is no regional enforcement.

Yeah yeah, I know the regions are here to stay. But I never liked the expansion without the at-large bid still being a factor. Even if they did the top two teams in a region, then 8 at large teams. Sure, that could mean that one region could have way more representative teams, but it would at least be teams with good records.

I dunno. It is what it is. Still, the easiest of all solutions would just be to make a minimum number of regional games a requirement. Easier said than done.

I believe the second part of this is something to think about. It would be a compromise between what the state wants which are the regions and what most people want which is the best teams in the playoffs.

There are very smart people in this state. There are very smart people in this board. I am sure that someone could come up with a better system then the current one. One that rewards regional play as well as one that rewards a tough schedule. One easy way for the State to reward regional play would be to award bonus points to teams who defeat teams in their own region. Only problem with that is that the regions down state, here in Baltimore, have way more regional games then the ones here in Western MD. And those games are due to leagues those teams are in. They don't really have a choice in the matter. Fort Hill and Allegany can only play teams that are willing to play them. So in that aspect of it, I could see how that could be unfair to those teams.